1.22.2024 City Council - Committee on Ordinances & Legislation

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overy hey hey

hey on ordinances and legislation come to order the clerk will call the

rooll here pursuant to the open meeting law any person may make an audio or video recording of this public meeting or may transmit the meeting through any medium attendees are therefore advised that such recordings or Transmissions are being made whether perceived or unperceived by those present and are deemed acknowledged and permissible uh first item on the agenda is citizen input we have a few people

who signed up the first one that signed up was Michelle Dion Council Deion and the subject is new position and trash good evening I want to make it perfectly clear I am not here as a city counselor I am here as a resident and a taxpayer and all my comments are um will be presented as such so the first thing I'd like to discuss is the new position I feel like the new

position um though it has a wonderful description basically is an assistant to the CFO and if that is the case that's what we should call it an assistant to the CFO I don't really see how anybody can um cover as much territory as this person is going to be expected to cover um I want to pass this out this is the UH responsibilities and duties of a purchasing agent um it was said that the

Departments will be taking over in essence as agents of the purchasing department um so that we don't need a purchasing agent because they'll be able to um go out and if they need to buy vehicles or just as an example I'm not saying that's what they're doing they can do it on their own as opposed to a purchasing agent having to do it the problem with that is if we have two or

three departments that are actually going out for services that mirror one another it would be very e easy for them to go over the $50,000 limit and thereby uh violate procurement laws because they're doing it independently you don't have somebody with a thumb on the pulse you don't have one person who's listening to the needs and can say wait a minute nope we better do an RFP for

that because you people collectively are going to exceed the limit um for that reason I think we need to have a purchasing agent somebody who is proficient in procurement laws um at a meeting in regards to this subject the question was asked is the person being hired going to be proficient in procurement law at the time the answer was no if it's changed I don't know um some of the duties the essential

functions mirror what the cfo's responsibilities are which is what leads me to believe it's more of an assistant if it's necessary it's necessary but as I said let's just call it what it is let's not make it this big crazy thing and in essence that's the Crux of it um you know here as part of the um essential functions knowledge of complex Municipal accounting systems related state or federal regulations

knowledge of standard office practices and procedures Municipal procurement laws basic accounting and financial Software System to me that's relevant to somebody that's going to work in a financial department and um assist the CFO so I'm not going to go crazy on this just my opinion my thoughts um and hopefully we can you can do something with that next I'm going to get into trash so it was asked years

ago I have December 14th 2021 at a meeting of the city council committee a meeting uh on ordinance and legislation discussion was held regarding uh a resolution pertaining to trash collection and cart program on a motion made in seconded it was requested that an ordinance be drafted for the committee's consideration that would assist with the ceasing of trash and recycling pickup at businesses and with

the establishment of a cot program that never happened I feel that not only does that ordinance need clarification it needs strengthening and I will tell you why when the easy disposal contract um came about back in 2017 there was an exhibit H that comprised of 71 businesses that were allowed to have their trash picked up even though ordinance clearly states any dwelling house building or other

structure designed or used either holy or in pot for private residential purposes whether inhabited or temporarily or continuously uninhabited or vacant and shall include any yard grounds walk driveway porch steps vesu or mailbox belonging or pertinent to such dwelling house building or other structure clearly the ordinance was designed for residential trash not business trash so when the former mayor

put exhibit H in this contract he clearly violated city ordinance never should have allowed businesses but worse than that what happened as time went on someone or people and I don't believe they had the authority to do so started handing out recycle carts trash carts yard Wass carts to various businesses to date there are 303 businesses that have solid waste and recycle picked up weekly many of which have not

one uh Solid Waste cart and one recycle but multiple there is a business in particular that has 12 carts so you stop multiplying carts times businesses nobody's going to tell me this isn't a significant impact on the cost of trash and recycle pickup um and then let's not forget the cost of purchasing 65 and 95 gallon carts the cost of repairing replace and replacing damag carts that the city is responsible

for all of that has to be factored in what was The Upfront cost what's the ongoing cost every time we have to repair or replace a cart um I think an overview of the businesses being serviced is also important we have nonprofits who pay no taxes don't contribute to Pilots pay pay their CEOs a $200,000 salary we have nonprofits who don't pay taxes or contribute to Pilots that own millions

of dollars in real estate and they're getting their trash and recycle picked up for free that's not a partnership that's not helping the city or the residents or the taxpayers of this city we have churches who don't pay taxes who are benefiting we have doctors dentists and lawyers to name a few benefiting from this service I'm confident none of them offer a discount to for of a residence for services

rendered do I blame any of them for taking advantage of it absolutely not who wouldn't I I don't blame them at all but the practice needs to stop in FY 2020 total Solid Waste projected was 7,913 188 in the FY 24 budget that number was projected to be 9 9,815 44 a difference and an increase of 1,9 13,656 just shy of a $2 million increase I don't care if the business trash is

only 100,000 a year it started when this conversation started and I know you remember it was close to 300,000 a year I don't care what the number is a savings is a savings um in 2018 the first year of our contract with easy disposal our fee to them was 3, 300,000 in 2024 the 7eventh year the cost is$ 4,824 n90 a difference of a million and a half dollars I give easy disposal all the

credit in the world for the service I hate to interrup but just because I know citizen inut is 3 minutes I have no problem as long as can I get some motion away of the rules all in favor I and I am almost done I was trying to hurry uh I give easy disposal all the credit in the world for the service they have provided to this community and doing it within the confines of their contract

they upheld their end of the bargain plus lastly I would like to mention the trash committee that was formed by this Administration it was comprised of private citizens Municipal Employees City counselors the city administrator and business owners this committee voted unanimously to stop picking up business trash and put out an RFP um prior to the expiration of the present contract and an effort to be

proactive and the Administration has chosen not to act I will leave this here if anybody who wants to look at the numbers it's all factual it's all truthful um and here I will read from the easy disposal contract sec section uh 1302 frequency of collection and Hall of trash and single stream recycling easily shall collect and haul acceptable waste at least once per week from every

residential dwelling within Fall River that the city collection service limited to single two three four and five and six family buildings special businesses set forth and exhibit H there should be special businesses we have more businesses paying for trash than we do businesses who aren't it's not fair to the ones that are paying the full boat for their businesses and I thank you for hearing me

and there's a copy of exhibit

H the next um individuals that signed up for citiz an import is Sandy and Dave Dennis and the subject matter is anaan

Street hello thanks

thank you for having us uh my name is Sandy Dennis I live at 132 Highland Avenue Fall River Mass I represent Creative Arts Network we're the managing entity for the Waterfront Cultural District in full River and we are here today to talk about the anaan street coming a one way um there's many we've had several meetings with the district and at almost every meeting it comes up to make andan a one-way street because

of the safety issues uh I've put diagrams recommended patterns for traffic in the current traffic pattern but basically it's a very busy street there are large trucks and vehicles that pass through inan Street daily especially during rush hour a lot of large trucks that make delivery on Anan Street and the mills in the area of Mill and Pond Street there's also large Vehicles when there are events happening on the

waterfront and just your everyday regular traffic some of the safety issues there are obviously it's a narrow Street it has two little Lanes at the at times there are Vehicles parked on Anan Street usually on the Northern side and in order to make that rightand turn on andan heading Westerly from Pawn Street trucks have to make a very wide turn and a lot of times if there's cars coming up

and in some cases they're coming up the wrong way because they don't realize it's a two-way at that portion uh it's a safety concern also when the large trucks have to leave Pawn Street they often drive over the curb over the sidewalks hit the signs the sign gets knocked down has to be replaced um when the vehicle leave pwn straight to make that left hand turn the visibility is

awful I mean we've done it several times it is really hard to see the car is actually coming easterly up Anan Street if you've ever gone from pond and making that turn uh having two-way traffic on half the street is very confusing for people and it it does cause accidents um accessibility uh a Vehicles can easily access 195 by taking the right hand turn at the traffic light at the top of Anan

and they can easily access to Wall Street at the traffic light to make a leftand turn uh so we have Mill owners I mean Pat Todd owns the Anan Mills the manager of the adjacent Mill has expressed their concerns of making um Anana oneway Street and as you can see in here on exhibit one the current traffic pattern where it's all one way but then on exhibit two it shows the recommend NOP excuse me

I just I transpose those exhibit two is the current traffic pattern exhibit one is the recommended traffic pattern that we'd like to see over there so we we strongly Advocate to make Anana a one-way Street it'll be a lot less confusing um and cause a lot less damage and potential accidents you have anything thank you thank you Mr Dennis do you have anything to add Dave D is 132 Ohio and avue no I

think I think sander is correct it is a safety issue it's been expressed multiple times at the uh um the meetings the Waterfront District meetings problem again is like they said you come out of mid Street you try to take a right a lot of people think it's a um it's a one way uh it's not the truck's going over the curb hitting brushing against the telephone poles brushing against the

signs um it's not going to interfere with any of the businesses down there um it's just going to provide tra uh parking on both sides going the same way and traffic going one way up Anan Street which is I think which is really what what it should have been in the first place I don't know why they made half the street you know one way and then the other half of the street a two-way just

didn't seem too logical to me but um that's neverless that's what the state did but I think it's it's it has created a lot of issues it comes up frequently again it's not going to interrupt any of the businesses down there it's just it's just going to make it safer uh you'll have less accidents and less uh traffic issues down there so I would I would hope that the uh the audience commit

would recommend that the street be a one way heading uh East and not a not half and half thank you very much you're welcome thank you item number two on the agenda are the minutes of the October 24th 2023 motion to approve there a second all in favor I item number three proposed ordinance on traffic for handicap parking I know that um Stephanie MacArthur is here if you want to come down Stephanie for

those that don't know Stephanie is our new um new traffic director I'm sure there's another fancy title for it but Welcome to our meeting thank you so the proposed is Alden Street Buffington East M huntter London Mason Middle Robison and Whipple Street motion emergency PR second all in favor with the emergency Preamble we need a roll call yes coun yes coun yes yes yes item number four is the proposed

ordinance motion to there's a second all in favor I thought we just did that we didn't item number four is miscellaneous traffic a stop intersection Branch Street eastbound to John Street and West Street southbound to proo Lane um section two it's a one-way street anaan street easterly from Water Street to Pond and Branch Street e easterly from Second Street to John Street section three prohibited parking

at all times Whipple Street West 125 ft south of Morgan for a distance of 54 feet southernly section four parking prohibited During certain hours that's on Front Street South 43 feet west of Highland Avenue for distance of 20 feet from 7 a.m. to 400 P.M Monday through Friday and section five is handicap parking removals they'll be removed on 9th Street anaan Street Bank Street Bay Street Franklin Street Fon Street

Jefferson Street John Street Maria Street montop Street Pia Street Robison Street Stetson Street Swindell anduma motion to pass through recommended to pass through motion so made there a second second all in favor I item number five it's all night parking of commercial vehicles we want to have some discussion on that motion to pass through first reading motion to pass through first

reading second all in favor question all you have a question I do and sure since you're here course so a few things so we changing it to the authority to the section to be police officers and parking Control Officers and now it's going to be moved to 5:00 correct so when do your paring Control Officers work they so as of right now they there is an ordinance they can tag until 6 p.m. um we don't

have anybody on until 6 p.m. as of right now they're only until 4: but in ordinance they can tag until 6 p.m. so essentially if we did have an officer out they could tag for that violation okay so is there any plans to with this change having someone work later to enforce the ordinance um no it's not we just figured since we were adjusting the ordinance we would add them into it just

in case they had to tag for it okay and then as far as the definition of a commercial vehicle is defined as the Vehicles registration correct that is correct yes anything over two ton so it would have to be registered as a two ton or more in order for them to tag for that violation okay so what about the commercial vehicles that are used for commercial purposes but not not registered as such if it's not

identified as that in the registry then they won't be able to tag it with that okay I yield thank you you're welome so all of these vehicles need to have a commercial plate is what you're saying correct correct for that violation yes okay is that the only question you had y okay so there was a motion made to First reading there was a second and all in favor I was I item number six prohibited

parking due to impeding emergency vehicles motion to pass through first reading second motion made to pass through first reading Motion in second all in favor I could we take um the items out of order could we have item 11 motion to take item 11 out of order there's a second all in favor thank you Miss Maca thank you have a great night motion lift from the table second all in favor I

good to see you see you as well happy new congratulations thank you very much hello Mr Agia nice to see you all um nice to see you you need to read anything in or do you just want to hop right in no I we can hop right in um the reason that I think I'm the one that had filed this resolution back to site plan review because I the calls that I was

getting or the concerns that I was getting from people was when you do site plan review for example I do site plan review and we're going to build a house somewhere and you have to go through all these departments and you have to run around and get everybody's signature correct and water department as an example um I did talk to Mr ferland where he would check off he would sign off that there's

water available there however they build a house and then the people have a flooding problem like we've seen on Carisa Drive in the corner so obviously if we're just doing that they have water I think we need to be doing a little bit more than that and then it was where it would go around on computer to everybody's office and I just felt maybe if everybody decided okay we're

going to do this on Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday at this specific time whoever comes in with a plan they come in everybody's at the table and you tell that person everything they need so when they walk out they have a sheet of paper saying what they can and cannot do okay so so I don't know where you've gone since you've come in maybe you can so again this is actually I think Thursday

was my second year anniversary day um youry aniversary thank you so your your request to bring that back to the ordinance for discussion I think was December of 21 I think it was if I remember correctly um I took over the charge of site plan review in June of 22 since that time um I think we have made drastic improvements of how site plan review is handled for both small projects like a single family home and

very large projects you know a million square foot buildings in the on Innovation Way in the industrial park so every different type of project requires a different amount of attention the way the ordinance was originally written is within 14 days of submission the site plan review committee has to provide response to the overseer of site plan review which was intended to be the building inspector um it never worked

that way it always ran through the planning department formally so that's still how it's how it's been running so I remember dating back to 20156 when I was on the opposite side of this submitting site plan review it took months sometimes to get comments back I think since um we've been able to implement some change in staying on top of these things we've been sticking pretty close to the 14 days for comment

response and I do keep um a number of people involved in that email we make sure that when the plants come in they get sent out to the different departments that review them with a specific date when their comments are due back from the date that that ticks the 14th day we start reaching out to every one of the Departments asking where are you at this is the list at the end of the

week of outstanding reviews these are the ones that are overdue two days three days these are the anticipated ones coming up so we've been able to shorten up that initial response Sometimes some of these reviews take a few days to review so we're just having an applicant come in and initially sitting down to go over it with them and let them leave with a a letter of their what their

homework is sometimes that's a little bit difficult what we do offer now is when an applicant calls ahead of time seeking out about the process we do offer to them before you even submit something come in spend time discuss your project with both myself the building inspector Paul ferland's office so before you st putting pen to paper you know what's anticipated and what's expected of you not everybody takes

advantage of that but many people do repeat customers definitely do take advantage of that it's free Consulting basically um and they appreciate that once the stuff comes in and we send out a very comprehensive uh response letter of all of the deficiencies revisions that we need made whether they're water related storm water drainage zoning run the gamut of of every ordinance down to curb

cut we we include everything now this is where sometimes we get into things getting a little bit dragged out that initial review letter goes out to the consultant and the owner of the property and and then we now sit and wait for the engineering consultant to respond sometimes it takes months but that's not the city's responsibility that's up for the owner and the developer to work with

their consultant to get responsive information and revised plans back to us but the soon as the information comes back in I can guarantee you we do all that we can to get them off of our desk and to get them into the permitting process so I think over the last year and a half we've seen dramatic change um and I don't see much of a need for change in how we operate in that initial

review letter we also at the very last sentence everyone it says the site plan review committee is available to meet to review any of these comments and we often offer that to everyone and sometimes they take advantage of it it's much easier to come in and have an engineering consultant sit across from me and we can go item by item many of those items get resolved during that conversation it's just a matter of them

to put it on paper so that's been working very well there are some items is that a peer review or or is that is that the developer's actual consultant that would be the developer's actual consultant the city has no peer review everything is reviewed inh house through my office the building department and uh Department of Community utilities who are used for water sewer and storm water

as well so you don't send anything outside nothing gets sent out no so if when we look at if you were to ask a developer or even a private land owner what the permitting process is like in other communities and other municipalities where stuff gets sent out for peer review and you wait for that review to come in or before you have to go to a planning board once a month to

have your petition heard we are very proactive with getting things reviewed permitted and shovels in the ground as as as quickly as we can um so that being said I think the process has been working well there are some deficiencies in the ordinance itself which I think you'll all agree I mean it was put together relatively quickly just to have something so there have been improvements discussed um we were on a

schedule of getting um all the website stuff ironed out so even our even the application that you fill out I rewrote it within the first two months I was here however we were waiting for a time to implement that so we didn't want to have all kinds of change so we've stayed consistent through the websites up we're cleaning that up and then we'll be coming back to you to discuss can we put

some more teeth to this ordinance and can we clean up some of the the verbiage and wording of how things get handled because it really isn't very clear in a number of situations and sections of the ordinance so we do want to clean it up but the process itself I I would defy you to find another community that uh proactively responds to developers and homeowners to permit their projects like

for it does does anybody else anybody have questions I I did um so Dan so when uh councilor Kad mentioned the peer review and it goes outside of the uh municipal office like yours your office does that that by you not doing that that it saves time for absolutely time and money peer review now what what is peer review would be you would have to hire a third party engineering consultant to review the project and

then they report back to the municipal municipalities do that and we do not yeah just about everyone yeah I'm pretty sure see does right nice no and it's it it was great even on when I was on the Consulting side that we didn't have to we weren't handcuffed by that with the city even back then um and but things did drag out dramatically I was often calling where where's my review where's my review before you got

there did the city send no they didn't leave okay yeah but and some of the problem was changes of personnel multiple parties looking at it the way that this the system works now is I review it for three different agencies so that's now taking three bodies out of that process I'm not waiting for the conservation agent to send me back his review or the planner to send me back his review or the engineer to send me

back their review that is now become so Consolidated uh that we're able to respond to applicants immediately okay and this got brought up this is your resolution counselor yeah from 2020 okay so now it's it's what you you we just wanted him wanted him here to make sure that all parties are meeting clear that to make I did want that all parties are meeting but you know for example um Council H we'll get

um an emergency for a a street that is less than 5 years that it's been paved you know less than 5 years but they've already given a premiere for somebody to build a house there so now the house is built yeah what are you going to do well so what what what happens is and and we're very sure to do this in the site plan review approval letter that is often conditional and there are many

different things there are other permitting authorities and approvals that developers or homeowners need to build their project right site plan review is limited to utilities and drainage because that's what that's what started and some of the zoning stuff often we'll go through site plan review and we'll say okay everything you're good here you need to get a zoning variance for this you need to get a curb

cut from the city council because you're in excess of 16 feet so there are a number of other items that they need to go follow up with in other offices within the city of Fall River um curb openings is one of them Street openings is another I can't tell them that their plan doesn't comply I can just tell them with if you if you don't want to wait three years for the to be able to be

opened the process is that you need to go to the city council and get that approval however they should come to the city council and get that approve before they stop building well because after it's built what are we going to do say no you built a house but we're not going to let you open up the street and the way that it's written is they do not get a building permit until they provided

and answered the rest of these conditions and it does become cumbersome sometime but that's what happens when you have rules that people we're a country of rules you need to follow them um and we try to make sure that everyone understands all of the rules from day one sometimes they don't like to hear what we have to say but it's not my job to make friends do you also get the historic commission or the historic

district commission conservation does anybody from those commissions you interact with them I do very much so I'm the conservation agent so I deal with the Conservation Commission daily and the historical commission hisorical commission is under my realm so you talk to them when there's when these things are coming because before they weren't so the historic District commission and

the preservation Society all of those most of that stuff gets triggered at the building permit phase so when it's coming before us for site plan review our scope is very limited and that's some of the things that I'd like to discuss about changing in the ordinance that maybe we can broaden our scope and our teeth of what we're allowed to ask for Mr Agia how long do you think it'll

be before you can come to us with uh any ordinance changes that you see F well there are a number of proposed ordinances and Zoning changes that we've been working on within the last year and domino effect you know we we wait for one thing to happen and then the next and then the next um as far as the site plan review process itself we were waiting to get a final master plan done through Route 79

and determine the process for developing those parcels and that's on the agenda I think for tomorrow night but part of that well there is development too yeah I'm I'm not sure what's on that agenda for tomorrow but we are in the process we just had a planning board meeting and uh a zoning board of appeals meeting about doing some zoning map amendments but I do know that the Redevelopment

Authority has hired their Master planner that Master planner is going to come back now this is only those 19 Acres but whatever processes we we want to put in place for the development of those pieces those are probably tools that we're going to want to make concurrent through the rest of the city through site plan review so that we don't have two different forms or two different different sets of regulations do you

think three months three months is probably a little aggressive I would probably guess six months I mean the Redevelopment Authority process is they're not getting that master plan for eight months but that doesn't mean that I can't come back and give you an update with what our thoughts are on some of the other items Madam cler can you uh make a note that in six months we have Mr agar come back and see where we are

on that anyone else have any questions and as you all know at any point in time whenever you want to come up to the office and have these conversations I know Lyon does take advantage of it often so all of you prob drive you crazy no I wouldn't say that but uh no you're all my my my phone number is out there call me ask any questions and uh once you get through

this and you say well this doesn't seem right or can we add this those are all things we can incorporate in whatever proposals we want to bring forth I'll entertain a motion but leave to withdraw sure you check the mail I sent the card for your anniversary you did not which mail doesn't M you for you to figure out all right motion leave to withdraw second motion leave to withdraw draw was

made in second all in favor hi thank you you guys have a good night you too thank you for taking me out of the lot item number seven um has to be lifted from the table is there a motion to lift motion to lift is there a second second all in favor I I item seven is to establish a position of finance management and compliance analyst

hi just so we all know who everybody is if you could just state your name and Cedric Souza City auditor Bridget Alman director of financial services okay M vice president could you just remind is what was the reason for the table again was there a specific reasons or was it just more discussion I thought it was for more discussion back then it was Ted in October no yeah I just don't recall if there were

specifics sometimes we Ted items for a specific reasons so if there there were specific items I just want make sure we address those la Give me one just she's so good with the computer she marcks everything down we're blessed to have you want to say some of the reasons were that they had left other positions in um in the the budget in the budget in the ordinance right yeah in the ordinance

yeah and we're taken out and we have requested that they go back to the table and remove them I'm correct so la can pull that up definitely AUST October 24th yeah

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majority of the conversation was just about deficits eating into free cash um with certain unknowns for funding um in history of the grant manager position okay go ahead go ahead so I just wanted to touch on um councelor on um I do agree with her there's a lot of work that that's too much across what we have right now in finance and we want to be able to do a better job to be able to

answer questions to counselors question questions to all of our stakeholders um we feel this position is important so where we've agreed we and we said this the last time that the assistant auditor position we would not fund that position um but this position is really important to be uh to help us make better informed decisions that are data driven it'll help us increase our transparency um we want this to be a

thought partner a collaborator with our city auditor and I mean right now there's just so much work that it just would be too much for him to also try to do this work and myself so we have a lot of things that the city is facing we have a lot of challenges we want this um it's really important to be able to exist in the examination and components of the budget think critically outside

the box and we want to help provide additional transparency we've got Arch we've got um so many things like trash that's been that we need to research how we're paying for that all the different expenditures that are involved in that we've got diamond we have pension restrictions we have all these new economic indicators that are happening right now and we have a lot of expenditure pressures but in order to do

that we need to be able to look at benchmarks Trends tracking historical data look at the changing economic environments we want to dig really deep into this so that we can not you know not just go with this is the you know this is the expenditures in the budget un let's just you know go up 1% or 2% we want to be able to be able to dig deep into the budgets of the Departments to

say you know maybe these dollars will be better spent here or there we want to improve efficiencies we want to make sure that we're you know following all compliance and all of our regulations and how those you know affect the budget we have you know a new gby that came down for example any software that you have that's over a year old that that you have a more than a contract for one

year depending on the value of that we would have to then treat that in our financial statements as if it was an asset of the Cities even though it's just a subscription that's just an example of of all these new things that keep coming down every year and we want to work collaboratively with all of our departments so these this position these financial analyst positions we're not the only municipality looking to put

this in um this is a private industry area that's been you know a little more historical but Municipal governments are starting to put them on I mean I looked it up there's a growing demand it actually is growing 8 to n% which is faster than the average for all occupations according to the labor AB um Bureau of Labor Statistics so I think it's important we started identifying I've been here just under

two years and we started to identify like where are we short and where do we need to do better and this type of position is something that we want to be able to do better we want to grow the financing we want to grow the audit department and make make them stronger we want to grow all of our treasury collectors assessors in order to do that we need to bring it all together and I

alone can't do it by myself I mean we now have there's just a lot of of uh changes that we really need to be looking into and it's it's going to take time with the research that's involved to make those best decisions I one of the questions that we had too was about the purchasing agent and I know what uh councilor Dion had talked about earlier uh you can get an

emergency you know somebody to come in and do an emergency for a certain amount of money but once it reaches over an amount of money from that department you had talked to me about that yeah I agree that that was happening we because we have to be looking at like across all right all purchases across the entire city it's not just um so we know we we went out looking to try to hire just a purchasing

agent I mean as you know there's it's hard to fill positions everywhere across the city but some of these so we've been doing kind of throwing around like outside the think outside the box of like how can we fulfill this and we've been we haven't finalized the plan but we've we' we're coming closer to finalizing the plan to so that we're in compliance and following all of that thank you councelor

Samson so I have a couple of questions my issues um prior um are still some concerns that I have today so what are the two slots that you're not taking you're taking them out of the budget you're not taking out of the budget we're not getting rid of them what are those two positions so assistant auditor okay and purchasing agent we're not going to fill as a full-time full purchasing agent we're

looking at a like a high hbd where we would have someone overseeing that but then also filling in with a lower level person to help take some other the responsibilities off that person so these two semi- big positions we are not getting rid of them we're just going to not fill them right now so then we're going to if we agreed on it create another position but then what you're saying and what I'm hearing is that

you're very busy you can't do this alone he's very busy your department is very busy you need to bring on another person but we're going to get rid of two people to get one person I'm afraid that that one person taking on these roles um and then assisting you what it looks like so it almost looks like to me a threepers job to have to be a one to be here and

then down the road we're going to go and then possibly need to fill those other positions when I feel like we're not being honest with the citizens by saying well we're not going to fill them we don't need to fill them right now we could fill them down and I think I've been pretty honest with my stance on this and I don't think I've it's changed at this point I'm not hearing anything

it's the same I get it um if we said I would feel more comfortable saying to the public Hey listen we need three positions filled this is what we need but I feel like it's almost like a back door type of we could need three we we only need one but it's it sounds like a lot of work it sounds like you're very busy up there there's a lot a lot of

work that needs to be done and I just can't understand or fathom how just one person is going to do the work of two people plus we're going to add in this management of Grants I just it just it just doesn't seem feasible to me I feel like we're going to need to fill those positions in six months a year anyway and people are going to say oh well they that's nice they created another six

figure job for someone and they were not completely honest so um that's how I feel about that um with that I'll yield to my colleagues if they have any you can absolutely so we're not looking to have this person become like the be all end all of all of those things we have um what I they're not going to be handling taking over purchasing completely we've been working through that so this person will help oversee

some of those roles be a backup to to the city auditor work collaboratively with but to find an and I spoke we talked about this to hire an assistant auditor we would be looking at hiring somebody probably right out of school we the the way the the finance team has trans transformed over the last few years and the level of experience that we have right now would not be in the city's best interest to hire somebody

with no to get somebody else with no experience so H bringing on somebody else that has some significant experience and strategy and and research is what's in the city's best interest I'm not trying to backd Door anything um and what we did is say is we will not be funding those positions in the budget and we can't fund them if you if the if the council doesn't fund them so is the

person you have a person in mind we have a person that has applied for a position that yes we do have we have identified someone so I would assume this person then has a big history with being a purchasing agent or all of that having accountant I want to take purchasing agent out of this conversation okay this this particular person is not going to be a purchasing agent okay so and they're not going to oversee

any of that they're not going to oversee purchasing now okay so but that goes back to my original thought of that we may need someone there if that that person is doesn't have those qualifications I just feel that I for me personally I just feel like I I don't have it I'm not comfortable enough and I said this from the beginning with feeling it unless this person is like I

mean we have Ed I Capon still up there still Consulting Ed doesn't want to be here well list well listen I'm sorry but Ed is collecting a paycheck and he's a phenomenal guy but he's still here so no one's like forcing him to be here so if he didn't want to be here he wouldn't be here he's here he's getting paid and now we're going to create another position so I personally as you know representing

the taxpayers I I can't support this as of right now I've made my point with that we'd like to move away from Consulting because as you know you don't really understand the city until you're living breathing it every day so a consultant that comes in four to eight hours a week is not filling the role of a full-time person so I'm disappointed that you feel that way um but I haven't been dishonest with you

yet and I think I mean Cedric and I have talked about this position a lot um I really want you know a collaborator with him so councilor Kadeem thank you do you yield I yield yeah Council Kade thank you m vice president um so I think I think the problem we're running into is is not having a true pitcher and I I know it's it's a moving Target but have you folks actually just sat down and

identified what the finance team looks like 5 10 years from now and I know everything can't happen in one shot so there I'm sure there's going to be a multiphase approach in terms of positions that you're looking for things of that nature that we can identify and see on on a on a paper because I think that might be helpful um especially to council um Samson's question and concerns about where do we stand right

cuz I don't necessarily disagree with this position because I I know what the trend is I know you need somebody to go in there and start analyzing data and and doing review and making sure that we've got the follow up uh with various requirements uh whether it's the IRS or do or whatever the case may be but I think the concern comes um you know when we come down for positions we hear one

thing and and as it's a moving Target you know maybe six months or a year later it's changing and we're hearing something slightly different so just really trying to get that long-term plan vision of what the finance department looks like and then have the discussion this is how this is going to fit in there I will say I agree with you in terms of purchasing I've got the same concern that we've we have without

having a certified um purchasing agent we're not supposed to be doing rfps things of that nature and um you know the city has uh in the past run into issues where everything was so isolated with the various departments that we were violating procurement right which is unfortunate but um that in itself is a different conversation and I I would agree with you that we would also need

to know what that purchasing department looks like so I I think I hear what you're saying in terms of potentially bringing in a department head who would serve as a purchasing agent but not necess not necessarily be just doing purchasing on a full-time basis but also performing other either Financial tasks or any other uh special projects that the administration identifies or that

you identify from from the finance team do you have that road map or snapshot in terms of what the team looks like yeah yes so right now I we feel like this is a strong fiveyear plan um as you know the positions of City auditor and assistant City auditor those that's an old school term and that model worked well for many years but it hasn't been working and we haven't been able to fill

like the assistant auditor position was not filled for a long time and City auditor and so right now I feel like this is this plan and then having another department head that is overseeing purchasing but then having somebody at a lower level to to do the day-to-day work of that and then that and then that department head over reviews that is what I Envision because I have to work

within the constraints of what employees are like what's out there in the market and we have to be nimble right now in order to get what we need and so that's why I'm asking for this because the the traditional City auditor assistant CF auditor isn't working right now for us so because I know I mean there's constraints everywhere I mean there's Financial positions open across the whole Commonwealth across the whole

country so we we identified this we know this work needs to be done and I know purchasing is an issue I mean purchasing came under my under the change in the reor I clearly know that it needs to be so I I need somebody that's a little tighter and we so we have been we have somebody that is certified that is helping to oversee that but they're you know they again are taking on a lot of

responsibility that we need to help relase some from from them as well so we tried to hire a full-time purchasing agent there's just there isn't somebody out there we we had that open for it's been open all this time we but we do need this and I really don't want to miss out on an opportunity when I mean we're going out and now we're trying to actively recruit like the best people to come here and work

with us and you know this was on the table in October I I really don't want to lose someone because I know that it would be the right decision for the city yeah and and I recognize that but I I think um and I'm not suggesting that we we want to lose the individual but I I think from the standpoint the council needs to not be focused on who you may or may not

have but the position itself and does it make the most sense for the city right and I I think that's what you're presenting to us right is is that what that's what's coming forward I guess what I'm also trying to make sure that we're all consistent with and understand is is that even though you're saying you're not going to hire or fill the assistant auditors position you're not looking to do away with it that may be

and this is where it comes back to a plan saying that maybe we get back to that position in two years when you have because you've got a young staff in the finance department once they get a little bit more experience that it makes more sense to then hire somebody who might be brand new out of school or whatever the case may be with zero experience filling that position because now you have the capabilities to start

training that individual with the work experience that you have ESS well what we've done yes and no so two to three years from now there's going to still be a need for there's still going to be a high demand for accountants and and finance directors we actually we what we did is you know that City auditor Department had I think at one point four accountants with like degrees and then

it kind of morphed into this with you know less accounting experience we actually have uh project specialist but staff accountant that we brought on year ago year ago um that is working you know with with Cedric that has you know limited experience um new to municipal government but has some accounting experience and isn't you know has an accounting degree so we've backfilled that with a as a project specialist

staff accountant um I don't for I'm not going to ask to I don't foresee in the next couple years for increasing the audit department but five or six years when the landscape changes I don't know I mean I have no idea what's going to bring in five six no no so I guess that's what that's what I'm looking for right is to to figure out and and again I I understand it it's still a living

breeling document in terms of the Strategic plan and we've got to make adjustments and pivot as as the industry tells us we need to do and all the requirements that come down from either the federal government or the state uh in terms of reporting requirements I understand that but I I just really trying to look at you know in a perfect world money not being an issue the perfect Finance team looks like X Y and

Z right so if money was no issue that conversation no but I but I think that's I think that's important right because if we don't know that then we don't know what we're really striving for right because then at that point I prefer to to give you tell me what's the perfect Finance team look like right and then come back to us and tell us this is the perfect Finance team this is what we're looking

and potentially if we can get there in 10 years we would like to get there but you know phase one is this is what we need as The Benchmark right as a minimum and this right and then you know the second tier third tier and that's where we're going to go but at least we know what it is that you're looking for so that when we we're coming back and forth

or you're coming back to us looking for additional positions we can say yes that fits into the model that you told us was the perfect you know Finance team and then if it differs why does it differ and and it could be just because the you know industry standards have changed and we've got different requirements and needs uh but the council will at least have documentation to say okay that that

makes sense to us if we all buy into and and listen there's nine of us um we may not all buy into your perfect Finance team but I I think if you can give us that picture and that narrative as to what that looks like I think that's going to help the discussion here um in terms of moving this position forward because I I I fully support this I understand that's where the industry is

going but I also have um you know the experience of working in a municipality you know day in and day out so you were part of growing this to right and I know that I know the challenges that come with it but you know it's it's hard to to expect you know counselors that do not live and breathe this every single day to truly understand what it what's needed and what the the real stress and

um you know challenges are with the finance departments uh and and I don't disagree with you I I think any any position that we currently put out there right now that requires any technical um experience or background is going to be extremely difficult to find nobody wants to come into the public sector um hopefully we we see that changing a little bit if if the economy changes a little uh but right now it's hard to

find a CFO it's hard to find an assessor I mean there're I've said this before you you know Consultants are going out there for Town administrators police Chiefs Fire Chiefs there are Consultants that will not even take an assessor um job hiring job they won't recruit for assessors especially if they're backing uh guaranteeing the uh the hiring of of an individual so um I know of one or two

that are saying we won't even take it um so that just goes to show you that there's not a lot of pool the candidates are not there there's no pool to pull from so um I recognize it but I I think again we just need that narrative yeah and so for me this is like the the bottom of the like this is what we need like right now to to satisfy this I'm

not asking to increase FTE in the department so I'm not asking to increase what ideally I mean if you look at across if you look at other cities our size I mean where our finance team is like half the size if not even less I mean you look at your bedro you look at all Springfield you look at all the other cities so we're doing a lot with with a very little a lot so I'm just

saying we need this so that we can help do better instead of you know I don't want to just be putting out fires or you know the crying baby and like let's survive you know what I want to do is I want us to be able to be proactive and we can't be proactive right now and we have you know we've got we got a lot of things coming down the budget over the

next couple years that I'm telling you that in my expert opinion doing this about 30 years that we need this is the bare minimum that we need and I had already written this this role prior to um like even prior to Cedric being promoted I had was starting to talk to Administration about this so can can you put it pen to paper just on that so we have have that so we have a copy so that

we can so you mean like what my my ideal future would look like yeah yeah cuz to me I I really do think it's going to help sell I don't think I'm going to ever get it I I didn't I didn't say you were going to get it I'm just saying it just helps us to to be consistent with what the needs are of the department and then you know in terms of the challenges

that are going to be coming uh down from from an economy standpoint even with potential NC cuts um you know budgetary issues at the state level things of that nature I think that also helps us to understand you know from from a financial standpoint and having a good Finance team is important what's the minimum making sure that we're not having those cuts because you're going to have a lot of potentially

um competing uh Cuts in in some very strong departments that are actually needed right so you got to be able to balance those cuts so I I think something like that helps us if we have that documentation but it also be what you're all what you're talking about is why I need this position yeah I gu so Council Kima are you saying you know we can vote on this but in the

future to bring that up to us I don't know I I don't know what the will of the the committee is i' I'd be willing to table it just to get that documentation and just let's have another meeting um because I don't know what the vote I'm trying to count the votes and I don't know that I can count the votes on this uh even if it gets out of committee at

full Council I guess I want to see this pass right and I I think if we have that even it's even if it's just a a flowchart just I'm not looking for anything um expansive with a a huge narrative but this is this is what we're we're looking for and I I think that's going to help tell a story and potentially change some some people's minds would you be able to put together

a flow chart for the meeting tomorrow if this is passed and Council can get a copy of that I am we were fortunate enough to have some of that live to the city um so again like I hate to I mean we've lost out I've already lost out on other candidates for other for different positions I just I understand what you're saying and I can do that but knowing that I'm not going to get that

like for this budget all I guess what I what I'll say is is I'll support this I don't know what happens here and then if it gets past here what happens at the at the council full Council right so what I what I don't want to see happen is that the full Council will get shut down and then you've got a candidate who's going to be like okay there's no support where

if we have a a piece of paper that's really kind of telling us a narrative that there might be more support for it and then you get what you're looking for like so that's I'm just trying to find that balance in terms of can you hold off two weeks get us something I mean I don't know how quickly you can turn around for another meeting but and I don't know that that's going to change

anybody's I I mean yeah I understand what you're and I would love to be able to you know have a car launch to to give us everything we need but that's I I know financially because I'm I do the budget it's not going to work all right you yield Council Samson had her hand up but Council hot hasn't spoken yet Council hot thank you madam vice president um so in the second

paragraph here you put down that you budgeted the purchasing agent and assistant auditor positions in fy2 24 but that's now you're not going to fill those so we're not going to fill the assist because of because of this particular uh Finance Management compliance analyst uh we actually did change the name a little bit but um yes I'm not going to fill the assistant position the purchasing agent position we're going

to fill that not in a slightly different way that we haven't um Administration hasn't fin we haven't finalized all the details about that so I'm not ready to bring that completely to you but I'm not going what I'm telling you is I'm not increasing the fdes and I have the funds within those two positions so again I had to We Can't couldn't fill the position we didn't you know we had

couldn't fill the purching agent agent you know we had Cedric's been great and he's learning a lot you know he's he's young to us um so we had to be nimble and we have to be creative and I guess we're being I understand what councilor kadim is asking for I'm asking for the the full Council to be able to support us to say we were creative we want to do

what's best for the city and I want to be able to do what's best for the city and um so I had to reimagine the positions and that's what we're doing so right now there's no purchasing agent there's no no full-time purchasing full-time purchasing agent okay and right now we have um we have one full-time person that which is a senior accountant in that position um who's been with the city for I think 30 years

um so we my assistant Treasurer is overseeing and and filling in um along with our C director of City operations is working to oversee purchases okay and again we're responsible for all the school purchasing as well now and Cedric you you're the auditor do you you you do not have an assistant auditor no no okay all right I mean you're the CFO um I mean if it sounds like there's some

dire need there um for the purchas I mean to not have a purchasing agent we should have that I I really do think that um but I I mean I'm this looks like if you think this is something that you need then I'm all in favor of supporting it um you you are the CFO it's your office it's your department and you oversee everything and if we approve it

and you come back down to us like six year year one year later and things aren't improving then then that's a problem too so I I yed thank you councilor Samson I have a problem with I feel like we're gonna have to our hands are tied to vote on a position because there's already a candidate it's not our responsibility that the your office recruited for a position that wasn't established an ordinance let me just say

what which just said hey I've been recruiting I've been trying and now we're if we don't take a vote on this we're going to lose this candidate I got a problem with that because we should be able to have all the documents to be able to not take an emotional vote because this person who is so highly qualified may walk away my problem is if this person is so highly qualified in

municipal government then this person is going to understand the process that we're going to need to have everything we need to make a proper vote I have a problem with taking a vote so we don't lose a potential candidate that is like perfect for municipal government I got a problem with that we didn't go and find someone but now we're forced to take a vote because we could lose someone

that's so good I got a problem with that with that I yield so we we actually had I had wrote this position and we had this candidate applied for a different position and then through conversation and interview process is when we identified that this candidate would fit into this position so um I didn't think that this would be an emotional vote I thought that you know we we've had

conversations we you know in the mayor's office I was hoping for your support after that conversation I thought I was pretty transparent um I just I thought I was pretty transparent too with you know so I just again I want to be able to do to be able to do the research and do the analysis in the budget and again we've got things coming down from the state we have different you know the E the

economics that we're facing is very uncertain um and I think we need you know well we I just can't stress that we're working with even less than than Finance was working with even a few years ago counselor reposa I my position is simple if there's no intention to fill the assistant order position eliminated from the budget i y okay is there a motion um to recommend this yeah I I make a motion we

recommend it and maybe what councelor kadim said as far as come back to us within a month or I don't know what you what you recommended but that's what that's my motion I just said if she could have a flowchart tomorrow night if it's going to go to council you could present it to the council that's my motion so there's a motion for first reading is there a second no second I'll second

it can I just sure discussion so I I'm going back to the statement that he made I I don't believe the intent from the administration is to eliminate the assistant Auditor's position the intent is to not budget the assistant Auditor's position permanently right in the next because that's that's yeah while we have this position we have no intent to to while if but this if we have this position we

have no intent to budget the assistant Auditor's position at this time but that's I guess that's the point I'm trying to make right is is that what is going to happen Now does not dictate what is needed five or six years from now right so what what we're saying is is that we're dealing with a unique situation where we've got a lot this the staff is very young inexperienced so I

don't disagree you do not add more inexperienced individuals and have inexperienced people train that inexperienced person coming in it doesn't work right so what I'm hearing and what I I've experienced is is that you try to buy some time get those people trained in the experience that they need in order to be able to build your team from within right so what I'm hearing is is that this is a temporary

situation in terms of not filling so maybe your two three four five years but maybe in year six you might then reevaluate the situation and say now is the time that we bring back the assistant auditor right and that's what's going to happen and then I what I'm concerned about is what we're having here is is that if we're here in six years we're going to people are going to be pointing fingers and say well you

told us that you weren't going to fill the position and now you want it back you told us we're going to add this position and that's why I think it's important to have the documentation the the flowchart to say this is this is and if if you're saying and then I would agree with you know you know the counselor who who said eliminate it if that's the case if you're not looking to

fill it then eliminate it from the budget I mean from the ordinance and be done with it so do you I mean when you were here they the fin the audit Department was built up we had a grants manager we had I mean there was um the other name has slipp me uh project specialist the other project specialist was a different type and then we had auditor and assistant auditor and then

we had payroll and payables um what I'm saying to you is is maybe it wouldn't be an assistant auditor but would we I mean with the amount of I don't know how many grants do we have over 100 over in the city that we and the audit department is by Statute responsible to make sure those Grant those grants do not go over um budget as well as all the special revenues the

earmarks and there's more than there was five six years ago so five or six years from now do I know exactly what but I can say is this is ideal I can just keep stressing that we're doing I don't feel this is temporary I don't in my in the next five or six years I don't foresee asking to fill an assistant auditor position but would we maybe would we maybe fill a different role within the auditor's

position that's more specialized because again we have to overse water sewer their spend their expenditures um all of any of the Enterprise funds so there's but I guess you makeing my point right so there there's a lot that's going into it that we need to know the true picture right so we need to know what purchasing looks like we need to know what the finance department looks like from all aspects

right so the auditor's office the Assessor's Office treasur collectors CFO like if you need additional assistance you know grants I don't disagree with you and I and I don't know how many of my colleagues recognize and and appreciate that if we run a deficit in any of our grants that it hits free cash it's you know the J fund has to make up right so so some folks may not even understand that so without having that

conversation then you know if you were come in before us to say hey we need a grants manager then they would be like okay we get that we need to be able to make sure that we've got somebody who's monitoring to make sure we're not deficit spending in our our grant so it's not our free cash so we can appropriate to a stabilization account so there's there's a lot that goes into

it that I I think some counselors might not um truly understand and appreciate in terms of the you know the very specifics and Technical aspects of of you know Financial government but I I think we need to know what the the snapshot looks like and I I I know again it's a moving Target but if we can get something that would identify what what the administration wants to

see to show us that this is the road map you know when we did when we did the grants manager and the and the project specialist when we came down we we had a game plan we explained that we had grants that were in deficits that were hitting our free cash we also understood that we needed to build a farm system within and that the grants manager and audit specialist would then be able to

allow us to pull in the event that we lost our auditor which kind of all which is what happen which is what I'm trying to build right so but we we gave that story and that and we showed that narrative as to the reasoning behind it I just think yeah that narrative hasn't changed but what I will tell you that even even including that narrative you still need this role you still need this

role MH we should do we should be doing I mean I know from budgeting for many years we should be diving deeper into budgets we shouldn't just be doing like this is this last year and then you know it's a percentage change we really should be like diving in and saying you know maybe this year this this department needs this and so this one can do without and you it's a give and

take none of that can happen without having you know someone that this is their focus is on you know research analysis and strategy again this person Works will this role this this position would work across all departments with me with with with the city auditor with all with every Department um and exactly what you're saying is I am trying to build like succession planning and when we

when I walked into this we were pretty Bare Bones so I'll make a motion because I'm again number one I I support this position I understand what's going on U but I I do think we need a narrative so there's a motion in a second no failed you made the second you made the second I'm sorry she had made the second I did I made the second but what I've

got to say is that this came in in October where towards the end of January end of January if we wait again I I can't guarantee that there'll be another ordinance committee meeting depending on when people can come in within 2 weeks to bring it again so then is that are we giving that another month month and a half that's my feelings on it that if it is a situation of wanting a flow chart

or whatever at least put it to First reading if you want to bring it back or whatever but at least start doing something with it and even if you're called down tomorrow to talk and present a flowchart then you know it'll go on that's my position so um councelor H made a motion to um pass through the first reading I gave it a second roll call I'll let you want to withdraw your

motion and no okay roll call coun no coun yes councel reposal no councelor Samson no chair yes Council kadim so I'll make a motion again as as I was stating that because I I truly want support this um but I I do think we have we need a narrative and I I think councelor Samson's statements and were spoton in terms of you know getting rushed you know trying to identify a

person to fill a position that wasn't created that's all valid statements and can't be dismissed right so I will support um the position of what's the official position here we were actually financial management compliance analysis so uh establishing the position of finance management and compliance analyst uh for first reading uh subject to um the finance department submitting its uh

Strategic Staffing plan uh for the next call it 10 years second roll call hold on so we're actually approving the position tonight okay yeah Rec he recommending approval of the commission of the position but pending and that would be up to the Treasurer's Department to bring in yes subsequent information which is fine so I just want so last time we were here we did change the the official title to finance

analysis and compliance manager right I that's what's on the agenda what's I was trying to the agenda was the old uh original name of the position but we had changed it while when we were down at the table last time so what's what we change it to finance analysis and compliance manager okay so do you want to make amend that motion so amend it for and just correct the title that's

okay there was a motion to amend is there a second second all in favor I so it's amended um Finance analysis and compliance no no requesting okay going

yeah first reading contenent on the you want do a roll call okay Council yes councelor yes councel repos yes councel sson yes yes so thank you can I just ask clarifying question so just so I have my marching orders exactly as so you'd like like an orc jar a finance and what else would you like so minimum Staffing yeah minimum staff and then ideal yeah the idea is the wish list yeah I

mean I could so seriously though if money if money wasn't an issue if money was an issue and and I and again but because I understand that money's an issue so we you know are and when I when I I'm trying to live within the means of what I have and for the rep because I don't want the public to then chastise me for this but when I say if money was

not an issue the perfect world being not to waste money but this is what is absolutely needed to run a good finance department which will be a benefit to the taxpayers of for of them that is correct just as a disclaimer okay in the long run it is a been thank you thank you coun har was nice to meet you oh nice to meet you too thank you item number eight on the agenda is

proposed ordinance to amend section 50-35 salary salary schedules for EMS local 1202 asme

personnel

could you just state your name just because people matter what Nick molini Director of Human Resources Seth Aken City administrator good evening good evening so just the intent of this ordinance is uh and I may refer to items eight and nine at the same time um but right now there is no place um really in ordinance where the chief of EMS is housed He's listed as a bargaining unit

member under EMS local 122 so what we're recommending is moving him to a per contract position and at the same time while we're doing this some language cleanup to update the EMS salary schedules because they're outdated in ordinance right now so we figured if we're going to do this we'll do it at the same time and then because we are modifying or recommending the modifications to the salary schedules

for contract personnel just adding clarifying language for the uh Office of the Corporation Council to just signify that is a full-time Corporation Council a part-time assistant Corporation counsel and a full-time assistant Corporation counsel we going I apologize for blending those two but they go together okay so the first one that we'll take is number eight yep number eight eight proposed ordinance motion to pass

through first reading second it all in favor I I and item nine on the agenda amendments to section 5302 salary schedule for contracted Personnel EMS and Law Department motion to passive first reading second all in favor I thank you very much thank you item number 10 on the agenda is panhandling restrictions

Journey Rumsey if you want to go through sure um I guess the first thing I want to do is just you know make a quick statement because it's the reason why most of these panhandling ordinances get struck down is because they're not constructed properly uh this ordinance it will not ban hand handling no ordinance can ban pan handling there's a First Amendment right to ask for a charitable donation uh what you can do

if you do it properly is have time Manner and place restrictions so um that's what we've attempted to do here um you know I guess what it really comes down to is whether if it's if it's content based restriction it it will likely fail what that means is if you don't want somebody who is homeless begging from you but you're perfectly fine with somebody soliciting a donation for your local football team you know U

then that's going to be a Content based restriction that's generally not going to be allowed so what this these rules are intended to be in place for firefighters for Girl Scouts and for homeless people there's no differentiation they're all treated the same there's time Manner and place restrictions only so that's the purpose of this that's what the Supreme Court has said in their cases they've kind of

shown their cards a little surprised why nobody's followed um their lead on this um you know will this be challenged I believe it probably will although you know the there's two sides of the coin one is if they challenge this I think there's a there's at least a a a good probability that they will lose and then this ordinance will be adopted probably by every municipality across the country

very quickly um so I think there are other ordinances across the country that are not well written that will would be challenged first that being said Fall River is a little bit in the spotlight um one thing I also want to say this is probably not for this group here but for anybody listening um people keep getting this wrong Fall River didn't lose before we didn't have an improper ordinance

before that was a state law that was a state statute that a Fall River police officer in Fall River the city chose to enforce so when when Fall River got sued it wasn't our ordinance it wasn't in our law it was the state statute that was challenged that the court invalidated and frankly I I mean the Law Department knew that the ACLU was going to win that lawsuit which is why we really didn't

put up much of a defense I mean it was the Attorney General's office tried to defend it and couldn't so this that's where we are now that's what we're trying to do we will not invalidate pan Hill and that's not what we can do that's not the purpose of this coun Hut so U attorney gry so what we have in front of us has been pro has been you said approved by the courts no no it's

it's it's my effort to comply with the dicta that the Supreme Court of the United States have has stated in their Court opinions that's what I meant I'm sorry yes okay all right thank you uh attorney Rumsey one of the things in reading this ordinance and one of the things that concerns me is when they do pan handling on main streets near highly trafficked areas um I'm always afraid

that somebody's going to end up getting hit by a car and is there nothing that we can can do to like maybe not have people on you know you know the entrances or exit or highways you know the entrances into the city people tend to be coming fast and then yeah I'm just afraid some obviously one of the major concerns is Public Safety right and municipalities have you know they have

some leeway when it comes to Public Safety assuming it is content neutral first and foremost it just has to be content neutral once you get past that hurdle then yes Public Safety that's one of the things this is intending to do is you know um if we're going to allow a firefighter there passing the boot then we have to allow somebody asking for you know homeless person asking for money as well

everybody's treated the same here um you know could we have more stringent rest U restrictions as to certain streets yes um that's that's not in this yet we could always add to certain streets that we find to be more dangerous than others um I think you know there would probably be a little bit of research with traffic department and trying to figure out accidents and things of that nature but

what this does try to do is prevent under the uh the place restriction if you look at uh C3 um the person being solicited is not supposed to be in a motor vehicle and the you know the rationale behind that's it's a captive audience I know it it in theory uh somebody in a motor vehicle can drive away but what if they're a red light and somebody approaches that window that would be a violation of this

um to approach each and every window with against three feet of a of a passenger in a vehicle to request for a donation okay Council Samson I think this is I if we Pioneer anything in the city I think this is great to Pioneer I think this is I think this is much needed and it it sets the tone because you know I know we say homeless people soliciting and a lot

not all homeless people soliciting not all the people that saying the homeless are homeless that are out there soliciting but it's the other people that come in from you know outside the city that you know there was a couple of times they had pictures of babies you know they said they had cancer they're from another country they going to fly them in for this treatment and and they're breaking at the hearts of the

residents of the city because they are very giving and emotional people and they and they want to help and then come to find out that you know they were out there for weeks and then they were it was all a scam and it was a lie and they were in you know different cities and so that will set the tone here in Fall River to um people on the outside that

you know if you're going to scam don't go to Fall River they they they pass something that not everyone else has so let let let them go somewhere else that that's how I feel I think this is very good it's a good start it's not perfect as I think we would want it but I think especially section D I think it's very well written and safe for the residents and the people that are out there uh

doing it so uh you have my full support on this with that I yield councelor Raposa just gonna Echo what you said I think it's well grafted based on the on the case law from up top so I'm going to make motion to pass through first reading um Council Kadeem did you want to add something um I guess just definitions of panhandling can you explain that to me I'm a little confused so panhandling is any in-person

solicitation of an immediate donation of money panhandling does not include passive standing or sitting with a sign or making a verbal non-verbal indication that one is seeking donations right difference well I mean it's it's really trying to comply with the case all out there so in theory um you could sit on a street corner I mean sidewalks are considered you know public forum so you

could sit there with a sign or you could ask for a donation what you can't do is approach somebody because the idea is that's more of a public safety thing um you know if if you want to approach a person with a sign or a person asking for money you're more than welcome to do so we can't legislate that out so I I guess that's so how does this really I don't know how this corrects

anything though so so time restrictions on pan handling a panhandler shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of pan handling after sunset or Before Sunrise so after Sunset if I'm just sitting there with a sign and I don't go to your car and I'm still doing exactly what the pan handlers are doing um I I can still be there it's not a misdemeanor you can stand there but if you're going up to each window if you're

going to each window within 3 ft to kind of I mean frankly there's been studies that show that a lot of people are given to panhandlers out of intimidation um it's not a free donation it's it's not for a chable purpose it's you know for example um one of the reasons why it has been uh allowed to be kept out of um subway stations is because you're going to pass by that

same person every day asking for money and you're thinking is this person going to rob me if I don't don't occasionally give them money so they found that it was very coercive in in that nature um you know also I I think by the same token you have a captive audience and some comes to your window some people are giving money out of fear but no you can't at at least I think it' be very

difficult to write something that would um make it illegal to stand in a meeting trip with a sign not moving not approaching cars so I guess that's where I guess that's where I'm going because I I think the average person doesn't differentiate between whether or not you're knocking on my window or you have a sign they just see it as a nuisance right so I think that's the issue so even with this ordinance

you're still going to have those Folks at the intersections doing that and with this they're I guess allowed to do it as long as it's between Sunset and four daylight hours essentially right yeah sure can I add one thing though I mean I I think you know what I would like to see and this is really is isn't the law either though is maybe some kind of PR campaign because I don't think people realize I

mean for example section e um you know there's a lot of theft um by false pretense that goes on it's a crime to say you're homeless when you're not it's a crime to say U that you are uh a vet when you're not um things of that nature they are very difficult to prove but it is a crime it's it's theft so it I I I do wish that some of the the public in

general realize that there are services for these people um that many of these people don't live in the community they come into Fall River because as you know counselor I'm sorry I'm getting used to the last name Samson me too um counselor Samson right it's a it's a giving community and you know unfortunately I think many are being duped as opposed to giv to that call they think they're

giving to that's all I want to add if you look at the distinction in section D subsection one um where approaching or coming within three feet of a person unless the person being solicited has initiated the interaction that's essentially the distinction that the courts have made that if someone beckons you over beckon you're you're the Panhandle or if you're beckoned over to somebody's car that's fair game because

the person has the choice they've kind of made their decisions along the question of does somebody have a choice are they a captive audience are they feeling intimidated and of course some of the public safety things so the reason why the panhandling definition is what it is is that we really because of the case law cannot preclude somebody from just standing with a sign it's considered speech and we can't preclude

a motorist from beckoning somebody over um but we certainly can pruit a panand or from actively going to the road and coercively or intimidatingly um solicit you know actively solicita people for money so that's the big distinction is is you can't take away the choice of the motorist or the solicitor but you certainly can uh work around the public safety and The Unwanted Uninvited um

solicitation yeah just one other thing before weot uh attorney Ramsey what was the role of the police officers before going in in the past as far as the can handling okay said because it did say that the police will enforce the provisions of the ordinance well they were enforcing the there was an ordinance how often did it happen that was before I was here so I can't I don't really know um I just just know that

there were a few people charged or ticketed fined and the ACLU represented them and you know went all the way to SJC and do you know how the the chief feels about the um about you know enforcing the provisions of this new or it's been so long since I spoke with him I don't want to speak for him I'd rather him say directly but I I don't remember any opposition I mean I think

we're all we all realize there the problem we all want to comply with the law we're trying to figure out the best way to go about no I agree I just want to we put it in the ordinance and I want want there to be some bite to it yeah um that's all I yield thank you Council proposal no just I made the motion pass your first reading so I seconded you

seconded the motion okay uh Council oppos to made the motion first reading was seconded by Council H all in favor I thank you item number uh 12 motion to lift from the table motion to lift is there a second second all in favor attorney Rumsey I think you're still on this one no I think I'm doing it oh I'll say listen because I'm sure I'll have some involvement but it has not really my issue today

okay that case I'm going home if you could I this was before was and then it was tabled um in December of 2021 for Corporation councel or to you uh attorney Thomas for an update so let me Thomas I'm an attorney that does Consulting with the city so I've for the past year given the past my past experience I was the city solicitor in New Bedford when we privatized solid

waste and I did a lot with solid waste there and I've also represented the regional refu district the Great in New Bedford Regional Refuge District which is dmouth in New Bedford so I've had experience with solid waste issues so about a year ago the mayor asked me to um provide some assistance to Mr Ola and the team that was working on Solid Waste issues so we've been meeting for the

past year pretty much and um what's come out of that is is a lot of information uh the first thing I will say which is pretty much leading with the important news is that um um everybody all of the commercial businesses that have been receiving trash collection and recycling collection from the city will be receiving notice midweek next week that as of March 1st the city will no longer be

collecting uh or recycling we're doing it to give them five weeks we're going to give them a list of all the commercial business companies that do the hauling but since the ordinance doesn't require it and due to the volatility in the recycling Market more than anything um the decision's been made by the administration to no longer do that so I know councelor Dion will be happy to hear that um but uh it didn't

come across as a really quick decision let me explain how we got to this point uh the first step that was done was really to do what we called cart maintenance and that was a a three to four month effort I think of going out and repairing all the cats fixing the wheels fixing the covers making sure that the readers that on them can be read and then once that was done that

allowed us to identify which bins were associated with which properties and based on that we were able to identify that as of this past November there were about 249 commercial bins picking up for for garbage and there were about 463 commercial recycling bins now with bins it doesn't really make a difference how many owners it's the types of bins we have 35 65 and 95 gallon bins as a rule of thumb you

figure about half a pound of trash per gallon so based on those numbers we took all of the information that came from reeg that's the company we then cross referenced against the assessor's office to find the property use codes and to make sure that we were identifying the ones that were commercial based on that we identified that we're probably picking up about 256 tons of commercial

Miss ible solid waste a year and about 433 tons of commercial recycling a year uh dollar-wise the easy disposal contract is a fixed price contract so whether they pick up 20,000 CS 25,000 cats 15,000 cats it makes no difference we pay the same price that contract was written has two more years to it it was written in a way that front loaded the savings and so as time has gone on picked up in cost but

it was a front-loaded savings contract the other thing that's interesting about that contact contract is that schedule that councelor Dion mentioned schedule I think H that was written into that contract as pure recycling program and it says it right on the top of it it started out as a recycling program for those properties until a priate Administration made the decision to go away from pay as you

throw when they went away from pay as you throw bins were then giving out given out to these businesses for solid waste collection at that point and what it basically did is it's adversely impacted recycling prior to pay as you throw being taken away we were recycling somewhere between 12 and 14,000 tons a year now we're recycling about 7,000 tons a year which is an effort that we're going to address and we'll be

talking to you folks in the future about ideas on how to address that because we have to recycle more we can't keep going on the path that we're going on it's just not going to work so we do have some ideas that we're going to work with you we've already started talking to the schools because good place to start the children are the best place to start because the children will be the best

recycling enforces that we have because they enforce it on their parents amen and so we've spoken to the school department about possibly having contests about doing things like that bringing in education years ago we used to use The Lorax from um Dr Seuss which is a great teaching tool for that so in any case what it comes out to is we pay about 100 we pay $13.20 a ton for disposal this is where

it does impact us on disposal that comes out to about 30,000 a year for commercial Municipal Solid Waste we pay $125 a ton for recycling disposal or pickup that comes out to about 55,000 a year so our savings from doing this are going to be in the $80 to $100,000 range because we're going off with some assumptions on five on 50% you know per per barrel what it does allow us to avert is

that there is huge volatility I know councilor kadim dealt with it in seeon in the past we've dealt with it not only here in fora but in other communities I represent where we're paying gate rate right now which is $125 that's what anybody who goes to recycle would pay there is volatility U ility because our a portion of our recycling because we went to single stream is contaminated

so if you take a bin of pure corrugated cardboard it has a value because it can be sent out and it can be recycled if somebody breaks a bottle in there the shards go into the corrugated cardboard and the value of that cardboard is decimated by 90% single stream encourages that because everything is put into one bin so for the past year we've been running a pilot program in the North End NE one North

End Neighborhood and one Southend neighborhood which separates out and does it so they pick up cardboard one week the rest of the recyclables the next week we're finding that in the North End of the city in the neighborhood it's working really well and it's actually stabilized the value of the cardboard and it's getting better we find we're not having as much luck in the South End and I think it's due to

the with all the respect I think it's due to the nature of the housing and the nature that you have a lot more tenants down there than in the North End so we're going to redouble education efforts we're going to redouble um enforcement efforts to try to get the recycling cleaner because there are other issues playing out with that so when you get right down to it I would never try to

tell you all what to do you are the elected officials on the ordinance committee but the ordinance right now reads and this is collect Solid Waste and Recycling from single family dwellings and multif family residential dwellings dwelling build buildings containing up to six dwelling units it doesn't speak to commercial so since it doesn't speak to commercial there is no requirement of

anything being changed to stop us from collecting commercial it's really an administrative decision so um that's going to happen and then we're giving them until March 1st March 1st is a Friday and so in the following what'll then happen is we will then go down and collect back the city bins now people bought their pink bins so we can't collect those back those are actually purchased but we'll collect back all the

other bins and at that point in time we'll redouble enforcement we've talked to easy they know they're not going to be picking up in those areas it's really not a major issue the businesses have the ability to do it there had been a concern in the past what are you going to do because a business doesn't have room for a dumpster but but there are opportunities for them to have bins so

and the businesses that are picking up have the same responsibility and they're under the same waistbands so they will still be encouraging recycling it's just they have to do it themselves gets us out of a business that quite honestly we don't really need to be in councelor Raposa you had your hand up yeah I mean just to your point I mean at the school that I'm principal at we had the same issue where we had to

transition to an option recycling as it was was no longer a savings essentially so we kind of morphed to what we were doing and now we have a dumpster that is a small one that's Recycling and a big dumpster for trash but the cardboard piece is a big piece and that's really the only thing that has any value at this point so I mean I'm glad I'm glad March first is the day and my other

question was answered about collecting the bin so yeah so we're going to do that the other thing too is the point that you were making about the recycling right now on Lewiston Street all of the recycling comes into Lewiston Street and then we're in the process right now of doing a little bit they call it a murf we're doing a little bit of trying to clean out some of the contamination to

increase the value in the um in the recyclables and we're having some sorry about that we're having some success with that not great success but some success the best thing to do is to go to split stream recycling again but that's a conversation to have we're also going to be working with the state um they have people that can help with that and um probably within about a month we'll be going out for two RF two

solicitations one will be a solicitation On Solid Waste Disposal because our contract with Republic is up in October and then one will be republ or easy uh Republic that's the disposal oh the disp so easy delivers the garbage to Republic to the transfer station um so we're going to uh we're going out with an RFP it's not an RFP this not under 30b right so but it's a solicitation um and in doing that

solicitation we're relying on we're getting some documents from the state they have a contract Bank a Dap that I'm looking at I've got some documents from other communities so we're coming out with a solicitation for that for the disposal of solid waste and then we're coming out with a solicitation for the disposal of recycling we'll still do the pickup but then we'll deliver right now

we have no contract for recycling we pay gate rate they call it which is what a homeowner would pay if they went up to the door and as I said it is a volatile Market um and right now cardboard has some value there's not a lot of value in Plastics right now and it changes for a while there we were told don't put pizza boxes in recycling okay so nobody put pizza boxes

in then we were told as long as there's no food on the pizza boxes and it's just grease you can put it in so people part of our what we call contamination are actually children's swimming pools rubber hoses things that people think I'm going to be really good in recycle that we can't accept plastic bags um small Sil plastic silverware and the forks the reason for that it gets caught in the machines the reason you

can't do the single-use plastic bags it gets caught in the machines so the the inclination to recycle that you really want to do technology doesn't really meet it right now so when we talk about contamination some of it is solid waste that is contaminated in there there are some parts of the city where they think they have two bins for solid waste and they're just doing it that way okay

there are other parts of the city which I would think would be the majority of our situation where they're putting things in there that are not recyclable that they think they are so the mayor's had a team working on this now for the past year we've tried to do this so it's all data driven and best practice driven and I think you're going to start seeing um conversations with you happening over

the next months and you're going to not seeing programs coming out over the next months to try to do it because we cannot as a city keep going down this path this is with with diamond happening and their costs coming from diamond with other budget issues happening we've got to be very smart in how to do this and the state has not approved a new Municipal solid waste facility since crepo hill

crepo hill was 30 years ago they've approved expansions but they don't so our policy in the more of Massachusetts of how we deal with solid waste we put it on a train and send it to Ohio well good thing we have the train coming in well to go to Ohio because that what happens when Ohio says no thank you yeah and we're going to have to the city is looking at a a number of different ways

of handling stuff um from composting food waste we're looking at possibly a vendor that'll come in on textiles because there's a textile band well you can make an appointment they'll come byy your house pick up the bag of textiles they work with big brothers and big sisters and we get a rebate from it so we're looking to be very creative Al's been spearheading it with uh there's a team that includes Al

Seth um Charlie denme uh Bridget myself and the May well one of the things you said that um March first no business but we didn't talk about nonprofits nonprofits we are looking at them separately okay there's a whole different issue that's happening with them because it's not not as simple for example a church the rectory of a church is entitled to the bins the center is not so we have to go through and we're

going through that list now we we the idea was to do this in pieces so that we can treat everybody within that piece fairly and I agree with you there's a whole issue with nonprofits that without tipping the hand too much nonprofits should be paying something something there should be a pilot maybe 25 5% of what their taxes would otherwise be for um for not only forgen services for emergency right for

everything Boston tried to do this about 12 years ago they couldn't really do it but I was friendly with the person that was writing the program for M minino and so they gave me all of their material so we've been looking at this so part of this issue is with regard to that the um we'll be looking at nonprofits I didn't want to I didn't include them on purpose because quite honestly the commercials

are the lwh hanging fruit here so we wanted to get that out of the way first does anyone else have any questions you want to just make a motion to uh table and we'll get more information second thank you all all in favor I I have a lovely evening motion toour second all in favor I um before everybody leaves just so that we know should we do the next

meeting on the 6th of the 13th the 13th of ever is our regular council meeting do before yeah if we could do it before with how's that work for you like five to six that way we can just put a couple of things on it and you have a whole list like this it may be a little difficult but if we have a few things on it yeah well we'll try to but there was

just a lot of stuff to just get it out of the way the 13th the 13th okay yes Council okay that's

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