1.29.2024 Special City Charter Review

meeting of the special Charter Review Committee it's January 29th 2024 5: PM we are located in the hearing room at one government center in Fall River pursuant to the open meeting law any person may make an audio or video recording of this public meeting or may transmit the meeting through any media attendees are therefore advised that such recordings or Transmissions are being made whether perceived or

unperceived by those present and are deemed acknowledged and permissible can you please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance please I pledge allegiance to the flag to the flag United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all thank you and at this time we'll open it up for public comment and everybody should have

received some suggested langu language for Charter enforcement violation and penalties they were sent in the email they were also uh I think posted by it on the website so um we're referring to in the Old Charter or the new one 9914 I believe um I will 9914 is titled enforcement of Charter provisions and uh right now it reads it shall be the duty of the mayor to see that the charters Faithfully followed

and that all City agencies and city employees comply with the provisions whenever it appears to the mayor that a city agency or employee is failing to follow the charter the mayor shallon writing cause notice to be given to such agency or city employee directing compliance with the charter if it shall appear to the city council that the mayor personally is not following the charter of the city council shall by

resolution direct the attention of the mayor to those areas in which it believes there is a failure to comply with the charter the procedures made available in 231a of the general laws may be used to determine the rights duties status or other legal relations arising under the charter including any question of construction or validity which may be involved in such determination in order to promote

enforcement of the charter Provisions this is actually I'm not reading the Old Charter I'm reading how we had updated it up till now let me make that correction this is not the current original charter language this was our updated language in order to promote enforcement of the charter Provisions a three member grievance committee shall be established one member of the committee shall be appointed by the

mayor one by the city council one by the school committee at such meeting there'll be an opportunity for public comment and the committee will produce a written report concerning each alleged Charter violation that that I just wrote is what we had voted on to be the new enforcement of Charter Provisions um however um you would have received in your email um like five or six pages um and it's titled 9:14

enforcement of the charter Provisions it's it's eight pages of very detailed procedure um how the charter compliance commission is established what their procedure is for violations and then potential penalties and I think there was some discussion that one of the biggest problems with the charter is it doesn't have any penalties written in for violations of the charter and we didn't really delineate

um um you know a procedure for that so um I attached those pages as public input but is there any other public comment was there anything else you that you want did you want to address what you're saying okay um the only thing I got to say is if you don't for this job you got you got a you got a you know you know the procedure Mr Venice you come up n name age rank

no not a rank but you know what I mean aage 25 right away follow the mass I think it's important that we get some enforcement of the TR everybody's interpreted the TR different ways and uh you know we got to go ahead I know we talked about uh agreeance committee I think it one time I suggested getting grievance committee together I think that is calling for I put some language together

914 I also submitted documents from Reading Pennsylvania that had their Char committee they got to go to the city law department and establish a a charter committee by ordinance they have a charter Integrity officer that unfortunately is paid you know to uh oversee the TR and the enforcement of the they have a you know they recommend a committee on my old thing the 914 I recommended a three member committee but

I don't think that's enough I think you should go to Five keep it at an odd number but go to Five you all these uh all these things that I've read you know say a formation and put together somebody in charge of it that becomes a regular City employee but I don't think we can should have to do that I think we could uh go into the law department and either get the city or

assistant City or some lawyer in there to uh be ahead of that because certainly there's going to be uh legal issues that have to be addressed by somebody that knows the law and uh he'll do that or even that Personnel director whoever's inside the Personnel maybe that should be but I think you know if we don't get any enforcement in the charter then you know you might as well Pound The Gap

books tonight and call it the year because seen what happened the last time around something happens you get an unfavorable decision and then nobody follows it sh I recently spoke with a higher up in the city Administration and uh I complained about in addition to this committee that you have it's supposed to be another committee to uh review uh the ordinances of the city oh you know where a job that is I

said yeah the stack of ordinances 40,000 ordinances the book The Book of Ain is about this High I said but the TR to require it uh we'll see what we can do and just ignore it and there's no punishments there's no penalties I mean there's things in there that have to be outdated did I know Mike myoa in the last Charter well the current Charter they reviewed it and

what he did was he picked out every time the charter was mentioned you said Charter of 1980 or whatever what you know he just you know replaced it with the current shot M the current date but I firmly believe that you know we got to start enforcing these things we got a lot of you know we got the chars we got the code of ethics we got you know different other things that uh

have to be enforced and people are just doing bully nly what they want and you know I appreciate going back and revealing revealing this thank you that's it thank you Mr Venice thank you thank you mam yes very briefly please thank you I thought you saying thank you to me no I was saying thank you to you Mr Venice and I'm thanking Dan for being brief I can't remember exactly when it

was but there was another committee that was charged with reviewing the ordinances former city councilor Mike myosa was on it former city councelor Eric P former city council of Pat Uh and several other people Alis and Brett the current Now Alison V the current City Court was on that committee so at least once that committee was formed they reviewed the ordinances uh it may have even been uh before or while

the the original CH commission was doing its business I'm not sure if they're required to meet so many years uh every time the chatter is left ated but that committee was formed they did sit they had a number of meetings those meetings were televised just like every one of the 27 or 30 chatter committee meetings of the original J commission was televised they're out there on Facebook people can go back and see the

laborious uh efforts of the original J Commission all our meetings are televised they're all out there for people to see and so uh a lot of this is not new I feel like some of it is getting rehashed because people didn't get for whatever reason because they couldn't get the magic number of votes to get it in the original chatter uh now they want to rehash 5,000 points uh you know to seven years later

so I think we should uh judiciously complete our work send our reports and and complete the process what happened uh in 2017 was a different animal I I wish uh the document of 2017 never passed because I think it's an unmitigated human disaster but it passed uh overwhelmingly by the committee uh by a vote of 8 to one and was endorsed by the voters of the city of for River so that's

it I yield thank you thank you Dan seeing no more public comment attendance please starting on my right is that my right you're on my right Dan Rob marinaa Brown Kath MIM larv John Mitchell Laura Samson all right not Laura W I had to remember that let the record reflected is now Laura Samson thank you and moving along I want to uh ask everybody I did seek um an opinion from the city clerk

as well as Corporation counsel regarding the use of the term officer throughout the charter I am not going to quote every section that has it but the long and short of it is Corporation councel the city clerk said listen nobody is titled an officer even the chief financial person is called the chief financial it's not Chief Financial it's called director of financial services so the city clerk assured me

that there is no job title that officer is part of that job title Corporation Council said the clerk's correct the city officer simply needs a department head his recommendation is the you sub city officer is confusing and and should in his opinion be removed since the term officer in other parts of the code typically refer to a president chairperson Clerk or a secretary of a board that said do I have a motion

regarding the word officer move to strike off officer anywhere in the CH second motion's been made by Mr robelot to remove the term officer seconded by Mimi laravie any other discussion seeing none all in favor I I everybody okay okay motion passes to remove the word officer throughout the charter um and then my notes okay before we start on on going right through this from front to back is there

any place right now that a Committee Member wants to go right to no I so I'm not sure on the num it's on my other one that I had notes on at home talking about Prohibition I yeah so the one with the school committee and um overstepping okay I'm in the middle of speaking with somebody about it I actually have the book in my bag right now but it might take me a couple more days

to take care of that one so just to make the record clear we're talking about section 2-3 on prohibitions but that prohibition section occurs under city council mayor and school committee and it talks about no former member of the city council school committee shall hold any compensated appointed City position until one year following date on which the former member service on the city council has

been terminated there are exceptions and exemptions written to other Charters and we're checking with the with Mass General law 268 which is the um um ethics General la laws from Massachusetts and we're checking on the internal um uh overstepping and ethics of the school committee because there was some suggestion to add an exemption in that uh prohibition chapter right all right um an

exception uh to that one year to be considered for um a different city position um like if you served on the city council and there's an opening in the maintenance department or you know VI anything anything there are some Charters that have written in exemptions and somehow they they do the language that it doesn't conflict with the state laws on ethics Mimi was checking with the

internal school committee stuff so yeah we can we can absolutely go back to it if there's strict language okay I just started Reading Mass General law 268a because that is the whole Massachusetts code of ethics and I can tell you this right I have it right you I have the book I started just going through the whole thing and a lot of that prohibition really comes from um financial gain

which would be financial gain if you got an employment but it talks about like using your former position in a manner that exploits the position you had with the money you want to make um and we were we were kind of talking more about if a qualified candidate before that year came up um at least had an opportunity to apply and be considered like other candidates but like we said qualified

was the person qualified was the operating word and and we talked about adding a super majority right um and all that so we got to finish reviewing the ethics but can I just get the statutory site Mass General law oh what in the charter or Mass General law no that you're just talking about Mass General law 268 a chapter 268 capital a um lays out all of the Massachusetts uh conflict of interests and ethical uh general

laws is that currently referenced in the CH it isn't and that was the other thing I wanted to be able under Pro that's right here I to reference it so um cuz I think the conflict of interest has to be rep has to be referenced in the prohibition chapters of the charter is that a motion uh I'll make a motion that um the prohibition sections reference the Mass General law 268a that's my motion what Madam check

what yeah before I decide whether I'm going to we're not voting right now to change it to change but we are voting to absolutely add the reference okay but this vote does not modify in any way that oneyear exclusion no no my motion is just this the title of Mass General Law chapter 268a is titled conduct of public officials and employees I think that the prohibition portion of the charter

there's three prohibitions in here mayor school committee and councel my motion is only to reference Mass General Law chapter 268a conduct of public officials and employees second motion May any further discussion on that reference on that motion sorry um all in favor of referencing uh mgl 268a um all in favor I I okay motion unanimously passes that the prohibition sections will reference and I'm assuming

I'm not familiar with the statute but my guess is that there is um some penalties that that within the statute yes okay yes it lays out the definitions it lays out all the laws pertaining to it and it lays out the penalties and procedures for violating 268a does any so as a result of referencing it then we don't have to specify right the procedures and the penalties correct within the tri correct

correct I just have one question clarification the last meeting we discussed merging the prohibitions into one section into one section did we vote on that we didn't okay that was the abuse of power right across thetion which is different than different but then we were also talking about the individual prohibition section A and all that so there's multiple sections that we were saying to put

into one new section and we we did talk about it in the past because my notes say right that we should mirror the language across all three sections that's what my not say and we did that stands right some time ago we did not however talk about merging them until last week right and I didn't know if we took a vote on that or not so just to make the record clear we're discussing section

2-3 section hang on 4-3 and and hang on 47 and 47 cuz here's the problem they title in 23 and 43 they title it prohibitions 47 titles it interference with Administration they're two separate things and we couldn't figure out why they titled it separately um there's another section to though go ahead it's section 3-1 what is it 3-1 D and 3-1 d right so so two D3 31d and 43 are all prohibitions 31d is

Mayor um 2-3 is Council and 4-3 is school committee those are the prohibition articles and sections um for those positions four seven is interference and interference is somewhat differently than prohibitions uh the language is different like the interference says you can't order if you're an elected official you can't order uh an employee around and there was a discussion that if you took that interference literally

it means that if Council of Washington had a question during budget time of a department head Samson I would like to know know how many hours of overtime can you get that for me she would not be able to make that request because interference not she absolutely could not appes to the Comm then the interference says that they can't order or direct them is there another provision like this for the city

council uh hang on so I don't think we that last one about the reason for the school committee is is Ed reform no one can tell right an employee but a superintendent or principal I mean I agree with you the language is not right the language was too broad to me but right 47 is 47 was the school committee or any member near of shall not give orders or directions to any employee of the school

department but there's another interference written into the council one as well in 2 three it's 23b yes is interference with Administration for the city council right or any M every and we our problem with it was it says except for employees appointed in accordance with Article 28 the city council or any member shall not give orders or directions to any employee of the city either publicly or privately so if

councelor Samson called up somebody in the water department and said you know uh I want to know how many gallons of water the city City Hall is using can you get that number from me she can't according to that now I right so there was discussion to change the language in this interference of administration to allow for the inquiry in the furtherance of the city counselor's you know performance during budget time or

whatever um because if you take that literally every time they pick up the phone and ask can you get me the numbers for that's a directive or an order right well well couldn't we just add I think I don't I don't really see that I'm sorry for for data I don't see that for for a request can you get me something that's going to personally benefit me I don't

think asking for right my notes I I just thought about adding this does not preclude a city counselor from from inquiring of an employee or department head information necessary related to the forance of the city council that's all I mean I I just thought that it was open yeah I think it's it is open yeah I think it's open but if we just clarify that they certainly can the city council

was question department heads on a bi-weekly basis there's also and I can't quote the section right now but there's also uh a section somewhere in that article that says a council is put their questions in writing before a meeting which is absolutely absurd well that's when they invite people down so getting back to the two issues right okay I certainly think if we put one prohibition

section and list the prohibitions in there instead of having three under each one yeah I mean that was the discussion can we make that in a form of a motion and get that see done and that should be in section 23 23 well two the first 2-3 3-1 D and 4-3 those are the three mayor counsel school committee and if we merge them where should they go they should go in a big one big prohibition maybe

um but as what part what section leave it in two two section two somewhere Article Five um administrative organization art well not s well six is f scho Capital uh seven is elections eight no eight and how about nine General Provisions okay why can't we just leave it in section two because it does deal with the executive branch right is that considered the executive branch in total yeah it's legislative branch so

it's just why not in nine under General Provisions they have limit of office holding certificate of election the the felony convictions is in nine yeah why not do a 9 Dash anything and and add it in n it looks like nine is the catchall inspection of documents conflict of interest public comment rules or policies General provision nine seems to be the catch all of everything we didn't

put in the other previous articles and take them out of prohibitions and take the prohibitions out of those have one prohibition article it'll be like 9-15 prohibitions and then you list it yeah I like I I'm make a motion have to Reber all the other ones well yeah he yeah he doesn't mind the ring right so the motion is just refer not referring interfering just um creating a new n-h 17 18 it would

be 20 end well we took some out so it' be 9-20 my motion is that 9-20 be the prohibition article in section um and in that we include the language that's in 23 31d and 43 though are the prohibitions I on all the those on the legislative the mayor the executive and the school committee right that make sense under General Provisions under General Provisions it's under yeah article 9 is General

Provisions yep I got it I mean we could make it 91 and make it the first one and we don't have to put it at the end I I don't even really want to put an a number on it because we certainly want you know maybe we make it 91 because it is an important provision right and then we put change the number of everything else or we add it at the

end it doesn't matter to me I want to just I I just want to get along not 9.0 or -0 what's easier for you I'll second that motion even though it's going to make some work for me more discussion on moving the prohibitions to its own so own article division any more discussion on that I don't understand why we just can't leave it as it is there's a Prohibition on the legislative the legislative section

which is article two the executive which is article three and the school committee which is article four put the same language in all three articles and leave it alone well and then we can incorporate that into erence with Administration and clean it up because really it's a Prohibition you can't order employees around but you should be able to ask them questions in the furtherance of

your it seems that the language is repetitive and since it's repetitive and we voted to mirror it it makes sense to put put it into one I would be for putting it into one for for clarity and I mean right it's say exactly the same thing it's going to reference the mayor city council school it it it makes the prohibitions clear to the public as well without them having to go through it and

for the same exact if the language differed I'd agree with Dan and say yes we would need specific sections that outline the behaviors or prohibitions for each of the the people we're talking about but that's not the case we voted to mirror the language that's already passed since we've voted to mirror the language it makes sense to consolidate them and I and we talked last time about

um you know paid committee members too and I mean I think we you know it's like 9-20 prohibitions mayor school committee Council right 9- 920 D small B paid committee members and this because they are going to follow that same prohibition and then 920c is where we incorporate that interference with Administration no paid employee unless you're a department head can order a direct I mean no elected

official however that doesn't preclude the normal requesting of information in the furtherance of their duties right city council Samson wants to know make gallons of water the city hall uses that could be fairly subjective though and open to interpretation if you use that kind of language so I would worry about that if it was oh right I mean I don't mean that exact language but that was our problem with that

interference we thought it should go somewhere near that prohibition yes speak yes because it guides it guides behavior I'm sorry no didn't we just talk about adding a sentence to the prohibition that this does not include that makes sense inquiries didn't we vote on that we didn't vote on it I don't think so can you make a motion all right there's a motion on the table motion on the table

there's a motion on the table Made by Me seconded by Paul Paul what was the motion to make to take the those three sections of prohibition make them one in general Provisions so that's just that's the only motion on the table right now make 9-20 right 9-20 9-20 okay all right any further discussion on that well yes we're not changing interference yeah okay not yet not yet we're just talking about taking

all the prohibitions one article any further discussion all in favor you want a roll call vote now yeah all right roll call vote I'll start down on the left yes yes yes yes yes yes yes no motion passes one two three four five six seven to eight I got to count because I'm not good at math all right and then interference of administration do we leave it it there or just add the

sentence it doesn't preclude an elected official from inquiring to who like requesting documents it's like what if right I mean it just I I don't think well the language here I should read it 47 is interference with Administration yep but it's referenced not just in 47 but where was the other one Pat Uh 23b I just think it should be taken out it'sing 23b yeah it is meaning I mean job descriptions tell people who they

report to to take away from a counselor the right to call a department head and say Reena Brown sew is backed up get down there I mean technically that's not appropriate by this but and it violates the ethics rules anyways I mean it violates the ethics made aing on that well it's part of your job of course it is constituency 101 so you what's part of the I'm confused go ahead well part of

your job is you get I'm sure you get calls my kid wants to go to ten instead of wherever this says you can't do that because it says direction or order and all these things are protected by Ed form is going to allow you to call but you can't decide the superintendent he doesn't care about his contract until you I'm not doing it enough so you get sick of it agree um

and the same with the city council it's you're always getting calls about always you know this problem call a dog officer you know people don't know about animal control so I just think take it out this I like the idea of taking it out instead of writing in a a proc clusion right it's easier and the other thing is 268a the Mass General law the one that we're referencing but that's why I went

to that that's why I went to that cuz I went bigger in here anyway that's in section 9 there's a provision about 268a right so but that's what my point is there's so many other protections you don't need it in the charter I mean someone's job description the Union contract tells them who they have to listen to right I mean I don't think all the time I was on the council anyone I

called ran down and did something right away some may had you know certainly a strong policy that if a counselor called better let them know they were calling I don't know if that's still the case but let who's them if any counselor called the department department they were told to call the mayor's office I don't know if that's still the case the idea being it should be somewhat centralized and so

school committee so this is just I mean if anybody calls us if there's an issue or complaint I mean the first thing we're supposed to do is just call the superintendent and say look into this this came to my desk uh I don't want to overstep here you go and how do you know that where is that said I want to say the ethics and covered in but that's why if we're going

to change this like if we're going to change this it it should say that our direct line is so the city council if somebody calls the city council does it go to the president somebody calls a school committee does it go to the superintendent nobody should be out there stepping up on toes right so we if a a situation does come to us a lot of the time they're valid right so do we

call the principal do we call the teacher do we call whomever no we should just report it right to the superintendent that has that's the line that we follow on the school committee end I can't really speak for your side but I mean poor Charlie deny has to deal with me calling him all the time because a constituent calls me and says you know there's a you know sidewalk that's

ripped up in front of my house it's a tripping Hazard or there's lights out in my you know neighborhood I don't do call child and say hey get down and hey can you know is it possible for you to take a look at that or that's that's the approach you know like it's not I don't I don't never give him a directive it's not my job I'm not a boss I just can ask

a question I like the idea of taking it right out yeah I'm not opposed unless it's stated somewhere else that it it's followed and I don't see it I understand what you're saying though I I can see me you follow things the way I follow there may be somebody that is an elected official that doesn't follow that code of let's say respect I but there're still elected officials they should have the right to go to whomever

they want absolutely I mean everyone shouldn't just fall into that's why you got nine and seven yeah we were talking about the distinction of inquiries this provision sends a message that hey you don't interfere it's you may be an elected official but your role is not to interfere with employees and I think that's good because we have seen some elected officials who overstep their

bounds yeah and and that could happen again yeah I I I have to backtrack a little bit and say that be personally I you call it respect call it boundaries I know my place I know my role I am not anybody's boss I'm very happy when someone you know helps with a question I may have but um someone may take that and think that they have some power and control and just start ordering people

around and they have nothing to fall back on well and if maybe they just don't know too and so they're creating their own rules because it's not spelled out so it needs to be spelled out somewhere it protects it protects it protects the council member the school Committee Member protects everybody employ prot po employee as as a of us as an elected official I would imagine they would like

to know exactly where the line is so they can if it's not spelled out anywhere that leaves it up for interpretation that's where you can get into trouble well we have to take the ethics class online yes I and I believe it is mentioned in there I but again if my memory this we took it I think we did yeah actually and I have to take it again because we just

got reelected yes but again I think if I remember correctly I think it's a little vague it's a lot vague yes so that's that's I would imagine I I don't want to say it don't have a stance on it I I think if we're going to make a stance on it has to be very clear well two 2 three small B yep y it's only this interference of administration is only mentioned twice in the charter

23b interference with the Yes except for employees appointed in accordance with Article 28 the city council or any member of the city council shall not give orders or directions to any employee of the city either publicly or privately I guess if I marry somebody that's an employee of the city I can't tell him to take out the garbage I know that language is troublesome to me so I just don't think that you need

to I think it's an ethical violation if she if Laura calls up as a city counselor and calls Charlie denm and says hey and make sure my garbage gets picked up first I think she's ethic I think she's in trouble with the ethics of if it's personal gain but that's a that's an unusual thing what it's more more con concerns me is when she calls and says Mrs Smith down the street

garbage hasn't been picked up for five days go get it is that something you call a mayor about no you know there's just so much that goes on exact and I just think this is protected in so many other ways I guess by the ethics I'm with you I think it's the ethics you got a Union contract you've got job descriptions um you know you got just people's courtesy I mean no one's no one

out looking for they're discussing it you know when the 20th person calls about no motion discar or something you must be ready to say I give but uh Mr Mitchell you ready to make a motion yeah take it out two three small B so um uh Mr Mitchell made attorney Mitchell made a motion to strike 23b and 4.7 seconded by Dan R any further discussion to strike those two interference with Administration clauses

all in favor we'll do a roll call vote I I just want to ask I just I I'm just I just there only two spots just the two right I'm just wondering why it's in there in the first place because I think the prob consultant told because the consultant told him to put it in there and it like other sections they wanted a b a check and balance but I just think

the pendulum swings the other way and if it's not there and say hey stop what you're doing and do this but they don't have but they're protected in their own and what your argument is is that they're protected in their own job description their own Union negotiations I never like this language and argue for yeah aru they don't they don't have to drop what they're doing for someone to call and right right okay

and you'd be subject to do anything and you'd be subject to an ethical violation if you had them come and jump at your beckon and call too I mean that's the other problem is I think the code of ethics covers that just own but if she calls up DPW and says drop me off a load of gravel you know everybody's in trouble that's a crime well that's a crime that's rather than rather than

removing the section couldn't it just be rewarded to you know include some mention of the code of ethics no cuz I don't think the code of E C anything but perhaps an individual doing it for themselves and what I'm concerned about is more someone down the street calls you that's your job I think it's just I just think elected officials should have some leeway I mean this idea that everyone's

running around lining their pocket doing this and that I I agree with that most of them are just they're giving up a lot of themselves to do this it's time it's energy I don't I don't necessarily think of for me personally people people lining their pockets I just think for the um the way the employees could be spoken to at times and and that's what I'm thinking of um but who who are you my

boss who's my boss you know like where where is the boundaries but I guess you're right I mean if someone talked to me you're not going to get very far if yeah it does and my problem with it is it's vague it's ambiguous it's open to interpretation if you took that literally you know I just it's well that language wouldn't allow you to ask the water department to give you a list of I have

problem with that and and and how many gallons were pumped last month and I have a problem um it's just so not getting that information not getting that information like if I for anything I you know but I I call very like you know and first of all I don't call all the time but if I need something it's always in a form of a question could you is this right so but it's not in order

or direction right so there is a motion on the table made by Mr Mitchell seconded by Dan to strike 2.3 small B and 4.7 and we any more discussion roll call vote starting on my left La Y and nay yes yes yes yes yes yes no yes motion passes 7 to one seven Ys one nay okay I'm going take some notes out on 129 that is 2.3 small B and 4.7 2.3 small

B out on 12 can we revert back quickly to Prohibition two 47 no 47 yeah it's not there anymore sorry too late that's hilarious so what is I am the absolute worst school Committee Member ever nice on the record so on the record on the record I am terrible you're election time that's going to be a nice little sound bite yeah fantastic right right now we speak yeah they're cutting that right out

so something goes wrong in one of the schools and it just so happens to be with a uh principal that I just didn't approve with their hiring right I didn't approve that hiring not that I would have to because it's not under my purview that's that's the superintendent perview but I didn't agree with that the whole L now all right so now it I have to call that I want to

call that principal and now I call that principal cuz I'm I'm not saying it's me I'm saying it's that school Committee Member I mean that isn't so ethic doesn't have ethics right and they call and I want a list of this and a this list of this and a list of that to prove that that didn't happen in the school where is that verbiage that states that can't happen if we take this

out so you as a school Committee Member want a list of I don't know like whatever privileged information um I don't know not so much I think you guys have your own rules on that you can you can get that information you get any information you want through the superintendent or through a foyer request through the superintendent right that but that's what I mean you shouldn't be calling we

can't Police Every motive every unhappy person right and I voted yes is going to be people the the voters and the council members would have to decide on whether or not right right and so and then the principle that was the subject of this inquiry right would be perhaps talking about it publicly okay and that may hurt your chances for reelection or or this particular committee's memb for

reelection like I'm just so I would imagine people will check themselves if they believe that that information might be distributed publicly but it was it's in within your right to ask for it as a school Committee Member the superintendent you can ask the superintendent but can you make direct requests or you can't it must be you guys have school committee rules you better go read that rule book again

Comm in section 4-5 the school committee shall have all powers which are conferred on school committees by the general laws and the additional powers and duties provided by Charter ordinance or otherwise and not inconsistent with the general laws what's general laws I so I did not think that you had to go the super I don't think it's written anywhere you can go into any school at

any time and get any information because I've done it with other school committee members I've walked through without I mean there was no approval oh no I go through schools all the time right I I talk to them I ask them questions but you hadn't cleared that with the superintendent that always do yeah I always do why hey superintendent I'm going to the school today really yes okay yeah because the school committee

has its own policies and procedures okay yeah so I have go back she operates under a completely different set of policies and procedures and ethics yeah there some eths than a city councelor so they supersede because they go beyond extent yes she they can enlarge on the protections but they can't um infringe and I'm not even saying that I could be the only school committee member that reaches out to the

superintendent says hey I'm going to go see Doran today would you like has to go through the superintendent according to their policies and procedures yes that I know because though I didn't campaign I read up on what they had to do could do and I went I can't do this I'll just want to pick up the phone but anyway so I voted yes I I just want to chat quick thank you I'm still

Yes clarification I'm I'm still yes and too much to regulate too much to regulate too much to regulate too many different people um I have a question under 24 compensation B expenses subject to appropriation the council members shall be entitled to reimbursement of their actual and necessary expenses in the performance of their duties actual and necessary expenses shall be defined within the council's rules and

regulations do they require invoices submitted for that Madam counselor no it's a quick salary right I no I no salary not their salary I'm on B under expenses do they have to submit invoices for expenses I've never had it You' never had to submit an invoice I've never submitted an invoice for I've never I just didn't know I wanted to add language I want to see the invoices well they would be public you'd

have to submit them but what expense I would have all righty I would never I wanted to add they have I wanted that language in the charter I wanted to had all actual necessary expenses shall be accompanied by the corresponding invoice well they have to you get it pay through they have to all righty then then we don't have to add it univers when we submit expenses to the university for travel and so our

jobs we must heavily docum and request permission must too and we don't get reimbursed if we don't have the proper do want to give me a 20 bucks spent some gas money I mean I want to direct your attention to sections 27b access to information because I was thinking about this and I think it needed more language and I think Dan just brought it up 27 access to information B is information requests

it reads the city council may require a member of a multi-member body department head or city employee to appear before the city council to give any information that the city council may require in relation to the municipal Services functions powers or duties which which are within the scope of responsibility for that person the city council May request budget related information concerning the school department I

wanted to add the request to appear before the council shall be written either email correspondence and shall contain a brief summary of the information or inquiry I have watched Council meetings where they have invited somebody down and because they don't know exactly what they're going to ask this is the answer I don't have that information on me right now can I get back to you and I

think that they could avoid a lot of wasting the time when they invite somebody to come down to speak if the written request to appear has what I'm going to ask you about and I know Dan just mentioned it they're supposed to be sending written requests when they want the mayor or Corporation counsel or the department heads down those are supposed to be written I know that they don't

always comply but on this information request I think that the it should we we should think about adding the requests to appear before the council shall be in writing either email or correspondence and shall contain a brief summary of the information of the inquiry indeed but it's a different that but we could use that same language it says the resolution shall include the subject on which the city council seeks

information and instead of may we should put should contain specific questions prepared by the councel Yeah I have go ahead yes a 27b uh was like a direct conflict of what we just took out strike because this is saying uh something may require a member of a city employee to do anything would is no it's just talking about information it's just talking about well I'm just saying it's it to me

it's a conflict of what we just took out so I'm glad we striked that out because ordering people asking someone to do that's what I mean that's why took out it interferes with administra I'm glad I stuck that but let me just say this yeah I I I caution that because sometimes you get questions out of things that were just presented to you so you ask someone to come down and then

more questions appear so am I not going to be able to ask a question that just didn't make sense to me because it wasn't put on the thing sent to you I got a problem with that because sometimes more information comes down and I want to be able to ask what I need to ask you don't have to put specific questions AEF summ like why are you requesting them to come right like I

just want a brief summary why coming down of related topics I mean more often than not then they sit at the table the council ask questions and this is the answer I don't have that information with me right now if they had known that question was coming well it would give them a minute to be prepared I'm just going to go back right it doesn't just say uh we're going

to have uh you know the water department come down talk to us usually it's followed by we're asking the water department to come down regarding the water on Fountain Street gutter situation I don't know what it is so there's a little brief of something now but do they send written requests to them I would I would have to check with the city council but the city council requests them by call and usually an

email I would I that they get a request of what they need it's f it gets usually in a resolution from us to them okay so but again I go back to sometimes they don't have the answers to the questions because you know questions come up and you you're questioning something that they said so no matter how you many questions you have if you're asking them something that just came to light it's

very easy for someone to say oh I don't have the answer to that no matter how you what you put on that letter what you put on before well now you know go back and get the information you know so no I no I I get all that it's just that the whole the I this is how I see it if you can follow my crazy Logic the charter is

the Laur of Fall River and the charter is supposed to guide departments legislative the mayor the school committee and other departments I they guidelines for how things should be done there guidelines that we look for for direction and my problem is that b doesn't say anything about letting them know anything that you want and I I don't like the idea of calling a department head down um um and then and

them not being I think it makes everybody look bad if they don't know what's coming at them all all I want is some kind of written summary to them because I always feel that sometimes they come down there and um I don't think it's intentional I won't say it's intentional but then they start looking like that they're not doing their job or they're not confident at their job because they don't even you know they

might not know why they're there sometimes what I think I I I do I make sense so yeah well sometimes there's they wave the rules and they ask someone to come down for a question that's on the floor so uh Seth the city administrator sometimes he doesn't know because can I weigh the rules can he come down and answer I don't know I didn't know you were going to ask that

question but when a person is invited to come down before the city council to answer some questions it is regarding a situation that we have asked them to come down so they know what it's what it's for department has just not we're going to you know interrogate uh you know a department for no reason they know what it's in regards to so you know you can feel if you want to say add

language to that um and maybe we should pause that while we ask exactly what the city council clerk does what language she think but she does but see B is different than d That's what I'm saying B encompasses everybody um whereas D it only says a department head or employee of the city I just I thought that they sounded different and why were they different see B and D two different same thing again a charter

with a lot of language in it that we can clean up the council should be able to ask anybody to come down at any time I'm just saying if that's what we're going to do let's have it in writing give them a brief synopsis in a minute you want to wave the rules and call upstairs and have the mayor come down while you're doing something that's the council I guess can do that but I'm talking about

27b and D seem to be the same thing why it has all those words in it I don't know follow me yeah I want to get rid of one I only want one I only want one invitation I can I talk to I think they they are two SE things and maybe I'm I'm Different I like to talk to the clerk because I know I just filed a resolution to have some people come down before me

of a city department so that resolution had to go through the city council we had to vote you know if they were you know everyone wanted them to come down and okay everyone voted we want to come down now sometimes some of the council ask for information request so 27 B and D you're going to try to find out if there's a difference between those both are talking about the city council

asking somebody to come down to answer questions I just if we can have less of these duplicatus paragraphs then so be it I'm all about less is more sometimes okay but I don't want to make sure that we're not taking out something that needs to be in there right that's all I'm saying so you're going to lur to lur to check on that right mhm because as far as I'm concerned it's

all the same thing you're asking somebody to come down to answer questions I don't care if it's budget Services it should just all be one way the same way right if that makes sense well B and D I mean d is just stating that it's the notice exactly what you're saying it it says in it the resolutions shall include the subject on which the city council seeks information yeah but then B doesn't say anything about the

school department right because that's just school department in there right so I just think that we could do all of that with one paragraph because I don't I don't know if there's a difference why there's two right why is there two yes I mean it doesn't look I'm sorry it doesn't look like information requests have to be written requests like d right I just I kind of think that they should be written right but

sometimes sometimes and I I think you're going to limit yourself to that because sometimes you need information to clarify something of discussion that's happening and you're asking a department you're asking the city administrator to come down and see if he's got the answer do that doesn't preclude the council from waving the rules making a phone call and asking them to come down how do you know

I mean if you're going to take out because you can write that in there nothing precludes the the charter isn't going to override the council's right to pursue the answer I just think you have two par paragraphs that say the same thing and I don't know why yeah it's how does it function now okay I mean yeah I think it functions fine right now you could po if you do this you could potentially answering the

ability of a city council to ask a department head questions from the floor most of the time there's resolutions put in that the resolutions the scope of which and the court reads every resolution into the record so it's not a secret the resolutions are pretty thorough but I also think and I've done this sitting on other boards when someone is before you something comes up you have a right as far as I'm concerned

if a department head is down there once they're before the councel a counsel ought to have the right to discuss anything that's within the the purview of that department head I mean that that's their job if they know their position they know their job they ought to be able to have a discussion about anything under the jurisdiction of the person that's before and to try to limit that because we didn't put it in

paragraph 3 line4 of The Resolution I think is ridiculous yeah I agree yeah I do too actually um anymore are you're going to find out though what the difference is between those I'll find out what the difference if there yeah if there is if there is if I'll just get clarification I have notes that we were going to visit 97 and I wanted to point this out we struck officers from everywhere but this one defines what

offices are in reference to uh chair Vice chair secretary and Clerk work it needs to stay there they just Define it 97 see the uniform procedures governing multi member

bodies that officers needs to change because they're just saying each committee is going to elect those positions or do we name it committee positions I mean I don't know you follow me we took officers out everywhere committee it's the the leadership and any any committee or both right but we voted to take officers out it's there but it's in there in reference to the leadership positions of

committees y right so I think it's fine to leave it in to leave that one in all righty all right you don't need a motion to do all that or fix the other motion we're all set so that officers because that stays because that like for example we did here is we selected a chair a vice chair and a secretary um and then later on Tim was appointed as coary Co clerk co- Clerk or

co- secretary um so that would be any other officer right I think so right I believe there language in there that says every board or mul member body has to have a chair or vice chair and a COR some for I can't quote you the language and P number but i' bet it's there and then 9:14 enforcement of the charter positions we need to revisit we need to revisit that mam just the point of

information yeah we did we did put in a grievance committee right yeah our new one just had um um in order to promote enforcement of the charter provision Provisions a three- member grievance committee shall be established I just want to make sure because we heard a little bit about that tonight yeah in public input I wasn't sure what the gentleman was but but but I think though uh there are we I think it's obvious

that we're missing key elements like what's the term uh right what how often do they meet like yeah the whole meet when there's agreement when there's an issue right but I think we should codify it in the charter I I think you know like you know is it a form do they send like they have to send a written statement there um I just there's a lot that we can put

in there and then we never write penalties look at each meeting there'll be an opportunity for public comment the committee will produce a written report concerning each alleged Charter violation but then we don't have a charter violation penalty portion um the documents that you got in the email I'll read you some of the penalties um uh cease and desist from doing whatever it is you're doing that's violating the

charter uh come into compliance um and they take into factors depending on what the penalty is you can just AB not ad admonish somebody or public censor criminal prosecution imposition of a $1,000 fine or other fine um refer to law enforcement um stuff like that and the documents I sent you talk about people that come and testify for a child of complaint shouldn't be penalized let's

say a teacher says the superintendent violated the charter the grievance committee doesn't find a violation and the teacher gets her Walkin papers and they come up with something so I I think that that this enforcement of the charter provision needs to be expanded to include how we form the committee we haven't here where they come from mayor school committee city council right but

how is a complaint filed are we going to have a written form uh do they just write a statement I think Reena violated six point to who's going to enforce it that's question well that's the other thing is that the the um the the documents I sent in the email have like an eight page who enforces it how but the cities only have limited penalties they can oppose right very limited well if the charter outlines

penalties no but I mean by state law right you know municipalities limited and how much they can find what they can if any I don't know that they can criminalize anything I think it's basically by flying do you know what provision you're talking about John I just I believe it's part of the home rule statute you know just like we can't establish elections or you know do other things that the states preempted um

um that's my recollection so it it might be in the home rule petition um well no there's a section in the municipal law provision of the general laws that restricts just prohibits municipalities from we can't other than the authority they give us to tax we can't tax and um trying to think of some of the others you know there's just a whole series where we're not allowed to um we

in other words you couldn't create your own penalty well no we can there's some Authority for municipalities to you can enforce your ordinances there's Provisions in the ordinances how you enforce them yeah but a lot of the authority comes from the state like conservation most of that comes through the state legislation so we should probably familiarize ourselves with that statute if we want to put

penalties in here yeah I get I mean there's a lot of different area zoning I mean I think 4A has Provisions in there if there's violations and stuff so pardon me probably have to draft an ordinance for the yeah I mean there's a lot of different Provisions there's various penalties but Mass General of 43 I think that's where the home rule petition is Municipal law unit well the other thing is whatever we

finish doing it goes to the AG's office and they review it for um conflicts with Mass state law let's say we wrote a a penalty provision in here and we said all right it's the fifth time the mayor's violated the charter sixth time we're going to find him and we put that in here when they get it they're going to send it back either all righty it's within your purview or no it does

so um but I mean we don't have we don't have the procedure in there I mean um I I in the next email the next meeting is February 26 there's a sample form there's a sample form I think that came with this penssylvania one U Mr Venice did the research on it and it's a charter Complaint Form you know your name your address what you think they violated who violated it and you submit

it and I I like the idea of a form um who do you submit it to to the Charter grievance committee right because you know we're going to for you know our Charter is going to form some kind of committee to review the Grievances right right now how is that process done there is not it's not well it's not there's not there's nothing you go to court in

the so you have to file it three or four cases in the in the charter we have in this Charter that we're using um it says the mayor shall enforce the charter that's what somewhere in here yep section 914 just says that we changed it elected officials yeah we added all elected officials the way it stands now um although it does the the way it stands now 914 enforcement of Charter Provisions it'll

be the duty of the mayor we added elected officials I think it should be any Resident well it's their duty to enforce it but anybody can file a complaint it'll be the duty of the mayor to see that the charter is Faithfully followed and that all City agencies and city employees comply with the provision whenever it appears that the to the mayor that a city agency or employee is failing to follow the charter the mayor

shall in writing cause notice to be given to the city agency or employee directing compliance if it shall appear to the city council that the mayor is not personally following Shad city council shall by resolution direct the attention of the mayor to those areas they believe there is a failure to comply with the charter these Pro procedures are available in chapter 231 of the general laws may be used to

determine the rights duties status or other legal relations arising under the charter including any question of construction or validity which may be involved in such determination so it references Mass G General Law chapter 231a 231a I'll I'll get I'll send that I'll send that in an email to everybody all right mam chair I have to be excused so Mr Mitchell we appreciate you being here

we're wrapping up soon I'm sure anyways all right thank you thank you good seeing everyone good night good night bye bye so I will um I'll get 231a and send it but I I absolutely think uh you know one of the comments regularly made is that big deal we have a charter who's going to enforce it correct where's the teeth correct and I think Charter enforcement should include um the whole shiel how the

charter enforcement committee or Charter grievance however you want to title it how we form them how a complaint is made Where is the complaint do what do you do when those three people get the complaint how long should they have and what happens if they find a violation and I I do think that you know public censure is public censure but I mean we've had violations I'm going to tell

you the the most irritating Charter violation that I'm concerned with is the city council a number of years ago demanded demanded that the superintendent appear before for them mhm not for Budget not for in further service city services provided they demanded he come before them that was a Wile there was a wigle thing going on that's all I'm G to say right but they but according to the

Charter I don't care why according to the Charter they don't have the authorization and they just kept doing it and they wasted hours and hours and hours doing something that the charter clearly said they could not do they cannot interfere with school department business the only thing they can do is talk about the budget with the school department not about Personnel issues not about legal issues and and and

nothing got done nobody you know so you're right I think that there needs to be something well in in uh Mr venice's public comment earlier he mentioned that this is done sometimes even by a paid position not that would be in necessar necessarily favor of a singular position that did just that but it should be part of somebody's duties as part of their job to oversee and enforce the charter as a city

employee but not not the mayor right May it's a it seems to be a conflict of interest I think it's a conflict I've always thought it was a conflict of interest and so how you can't hold one political person in charge of right I others and vice versa yeah you know okay absolutely we even it out it's okay always should it should be no I think you could put penalties in I think

public kind of penties like well it isn't the Law Department it's it's the Attorney General's Municipal Law Department that'll tell us whether it's in violation of any Mass state laws you said something a while ago Madam chair that that brought me back to the original chat commission at at the end the final the final chat went to the AG's office they that everything was okay and as we know there was at least

three or four Provisions struck down by the court yet the AG said everything was in was kosher well I'm going to tell you why they don't tell you it's kosher they don't take your Charter and make grammatical Corrections or tell you everything's okay they look at it for one thing is the thing is the is the um passages contained in your Charter in violation of state law okay that's all they do and actually when

they review it they don't send it back to you with corrections and they don't send it back to you with recommendations they send it back with nothing they send it back with nothing of you know I'm not listen I don't think that anybody is ever going to come up with a foolproof document that can't be legally challenged any lawyer will tell you you can sue for anything you want whether

you're going to Prevail or not it's a whole different story I don't think we're ever going to be able to um I don't think anybody's going to be able to Fashion a charter that isn't subject to some kind of Challenge and nor should there ever be a document right but the AG's office only looks at a document for one thing state law state law and the decisions that came down I'm surprised

that they didn't catch the hetler stuff because that was kind of a constitutional law issue right right I mean that was really your right to to um seek office so I know I'm a little like how did they not catch that cuz it was a constitutional law violation I I just don't think that anybody's ever going to create a document that doesn't it can't be legally challenged I mean sure you can

vote penalties and I'm saying for me right I I would hesitate to support penalties I think if there's a grievance committee and the complaintant are not satisfied your next step is court right yeah exactly which is you know which is costly too so there's the other thing who Bears the cost of legal challenges to um Charter violations flywing the complaint but then you also leave it to

the the committee you leave it to the court to decide how to impune yeah I mean because I was going to say who's going to enforce the the uh going to have to make up their own yeah who's going to enforce the penalties what and there are there penalties in there $5,000 you who's going to enforce that well when you get a parking ticket who enforces it the parking ticket people

right so and they get their authority to do that somewhere yes but each City in town if you put I get I put a TV out for somebody to pick up and they didn't pick it up and I got a little paper from DPW and they said hey you're going to pay us or appeal it so I appeal it I mean every division of government in in a municipal has the authority to

impose fines yeah but so I excuse my ignorance but if uh the charter review Commission Now says yeah I think that they violated the charter here and the mayor whoever is sitting at the time says no I didn't yeah you did now I pay you $10,000 no I didn't do it it's going to go to court anyway so I there's rights of appeal written into any penalty you cannot get a penalty without some kind of appeal

I'm just saying that could be even more costly than just going to court and letting the courts decide what those penalties are going to be I it's just well I I I would expect that most of the Grievances would be okay mayor mayor you you violated the charter we find that you violated the charter when you did this there's not necessarily a penalty that's going to be attached to that it's going to be a

finding telling the mayor you violated the job right right so what prevents him from violating again they would have to undo what he what he or she did most of the time it's get into compliance right get into compliance right I agree with that compliance I I agree with get into compliance or we taking you to court I mean I I just feel like the court should determine that and that the grievance committee should

not impose the penal penalties yes well they got to impose some kind of finding yeah I think they should yes a finding is not yeah not a penalty well but if we codify the penalties I mean I'm not talking about off the rip you get a $1 thousand fine I'm talking like it's got to be like your your fifth or sixth violation you got a written warning the first time for instance the current

Charter says the ordinances need to be reviewed every few years and they haven't been in forever there's a violation of the charter the grievance committee would get it and say gez you're right this the ordinance haven't been reviewed they rip off findings dear mayor and city council you guys haven't reviewed these ordinances in 150 years please come into compliance yeah and what happened and you got 60 days to

figure it out and what happens if he doesn't and then you give him a timeline hey you got the next six months to come into compliance get your ordinance committee together and get them reviewing it I mean if it's an ongoing like that is like there hasn't even been any steps to have an ordinance committee right well we get we have to check the statute we have to check the stat check

2 see what we're allowed to to impose I think that most of the violations are going to be like say the open meeting law violation I agree you know which is completely agree Paul you made you made a mistake don't do it don't do it again that's not penalty Maybe what happens if if the party says no or whatever or says yes and then doesn't do it like continues to

be that's I said happens when they do it again then it's continuing bad press why they get a public ad admonishment a public sensor and then you hit them with a fine I mean everybody everybody acts right when it costs them money I'd be I don't know check the statue I don't know if you can I mean I think people would be more think2 million then get hit with a are there any sanctions imposed for

the open meeting law violation I've never seen I know on our end can they can be fines and I only know that because right we can get fed on talk about never seen it happen maybe we can have Mr Higgins come I mean attorney assest usually has to respond you know right they you yeah I don't I'm not sure I mean I've never heard of anybody getting fine but I imagine this fines

there but that's that's imposed by Statute the open meeting La statute so I'm not sure we we have a statute that authorizes penalties but you listen if you violate the contitution of the United States it's the law of the land you are either exposed to civil rights violations or criminally right any violation of the Constitution we have to do some legal research I think it's um chapter 43 is the home rule

petition yeah so we can look at that and see yeah you know what the penalties for so we've got a lot of legal research to do right thank goodness we have we have some lawyers committee is there a motion I make motion to adjourn is there a second second any further discussion on adjournment all in favor motion is allowed 6:30 listen our next meetings are uh 2:26 and by then Paul will have almost four

weeks right I think we almost got