The Fall River Historical Commission and Historic District Commission held a joint meeting on Monday, December 13th. The Historical Commission was unable to achieve a quorum due to the absence of Reuben Amarill and Joyce Rodriguez, preventing them from addressing their agenda items. Consequently, the meeting proceeded with items pertaining only to the Historic District Commission. The primary discussion revolved around an electrical meter installation at 518 High Street, owned by Cortland and Donald Valley. The Valleys had upgraded their home's electrical service from 65 amps to 200 amps, a change required by their insurance company. During this process, National Grid reportedly required the meter to be moved from the basement to the outside of the house, a placement the Historic District Commission found unsightly and not in keeping with the historic nature of the 40C district property. The Valleys explained they were unaware their home was subject to historic district regulations. Commissioners clarified that the local electrical inspector, not the utility company, enforces the code and that meters can often remain inside historic homes. The Commission voted to require the meter be removed from the front of the property and placed back in the basement or another acceptable location, contingent on further discussion with the electrical contractor and utility company. Other items included an update on the proposed merger of the two commissions, which is progressing with Corporation Council Attorney Ramsey's approval and an ordinance committee meeting pending. The commission also discussed the preservation guidelines update, with Dominique expected to provide a rough draft next week, and decided to continue holding their 2022 meetings on the third Tuesday of every month at 6:00 PM. The Historic District Commission meeting adjourned at 6:36 PM.
AI-generated summary. May contain errors. Watch the video to verify.
Council
Public / Other
good evening everyone and welcome to the historical commission in the historic district commission meetings we are meeting jointly this evening monday december 13th pursuant to the open meeting law any person may make an audio or video recording of this public meeting or may transmit the meeting through any medium attendees are therefore advised that such recordings or transmissions are being made
0:25whether perceived or unperceived by those present and are deemed acknowledged and permissible can i get a roll call please for the historic district commission jason bouchard and iraqi president soul present rick mancini president kristen cantera oliveira present and we have three open seats can i get a roll call for the historical commission meeting connie silva present rick mancini president kristen cantara
1:06oliveira present right now we are missing two of our members reuben amarill and joyce rodriguez and we have two open seats therefore at this time we do not have a quorum and we cannot meet on the agenda items for the historical commission until one of our members gets here she is supposed to be coming this evening so when she does come we will redo roll call and then we can address
1:34the items pertaining to the historical commission but right now we will address the items that are pertaining to the historic district commission so can i just get a motion to move that up to the beginning please i'll make a motion to move 518 high street to what to right now to now to the beginning of the meeting okay i have a motion do i have a second oh second okay motion in a second all
2:07those in favor all right okay so if you'd like to um to come down and just state your name and address for the record please good evening my name is cortland valley 518 high street and i'm donald valley 518 high street welcome okay so i'm gonna i'm going to let you because i know that you were the one that kind of oh wow yeah all right okay the the home was on our 40c district neighborhood and
2:47the structure has a meter socket at this point that's placed on the outside of the building which is not sightly in keeping the tone of the historic properties uh that you know that we're overseeing and talking about here so i guess we could just ask you how that all occurred and what the intention is at this point sure thank you um let me say first of all my apologies we actually were told when we bought the
3:22house that we didn't fit the criteria for being in a historic district you're told it was from 1840 to 1920 in the house of bill 1928 so we didn't realize that we were actually subject to the historic district or being a house of historical significance but obviously we've learned since then so can i ask who told you that um actually the previous owner so the previous owner uh actually agreed
3:51to be on in the 40c district that's how the house ended up so there's a protected district called uh the 40 c so it's uh your house is pretty much like smack dab in the middle of it um and it's not about the age of the home and i know that when the house was um it was advertised for sale everywhere it was advertised it was advertised as a historical home um so
4:25yeah yeah i'm just telling you how we saw it because that's that's how it was related to us and did your agent make any mention no no agent did not make money at all well but regardless i just wanted to sort of set the context on that okay so when we bought the house um or as we were looking at the house we were told by again the owner that it was 100 amp service um
4:52when we had the inspector come in and he said well no this is actually 65 amp and of course it was fuse box it was a fuse panel actually in the basement it was basically half the the wall of the basement so one of the first things we wanted to do was upgrade the electrical service to 200 amps can i just say our insurance company would not allow us to have insurance if we had not
5:13done that as soon as we've moved into the house so um so anyhow we're we've been going through we contracted raymond mainland's melonson to to uh to do the upgrade and um and apparently national grid requires that the knee to be moved from the basement to the outside of the house as a part of the upgrade process and so um you know and again ray thought that you know we weren't and
5:47it may be because we didn't we thought we weren't either but regardless they've gone ahead they've they've made the installation the the inspectors have actually looked at it but they have and they have told him that it's to code but of course they haven't issued the permit yet because there's this discussion so the last point i think is um maybe two points one is this is that's the one place on the house
6:23it's right next to where the service comes into the house right now and so anywhere else would require basically going around to the back of the house to which would be a lot of digging and um and i think i like it i was a quote ray he would basically uh i got it somewhere around here you have that might be right on the top actually thank you um
6:54and he would be here but he's out of town so unfortunately uh you know basically there's no other house in his in his words there's no other location on the side other than way back left which is huge to dig and change we actually are have already commissioned a landscaper to um follow through when we about the house all the shrubberies and things like that were overgrown and um and so we wanted to just
7:27you know kind of make it look better make it look better yeah and so we part of that landscaping not deliberately but it turns out that it will cover that spot so it won't be visible from the street and that should hopefully cover the issue with the visibility of the meter and you know and its impact on the visibility of the house or the you know the appearance of the house because we're really
7:52i mean we're thrilled to have a house like this it's beautiful um needs a little bit of upgrading but you know we're happy to do that and um you know we've repainted the house since we got there you know deliberately kept it within you know in keeping with the you know the design of the of the neighbors so that it you know it fits in and we wanted to we wanted to look great and
8:14we're going to be doing landscaping to improve the whole look of the house but also that'll hide the meter so there should not be a problem okay the utility company recommends meters go on the outside of the building they're not at the authority enforcing the code the authority enforcing the code in massachusetts is the local inspector and the utility company i mean i can't speak for them
8:45mind you but that's that's for convenience they can pull the meter out they can work on they can service it etc but there's there's no real enforcement that requires a meter to go outside and the meter is read electronically today so there's no need to go and physically read the meter from the utility company so the historic homes in the 40c and any other historic home falls under certain categories that
9:16exempt you from a lot of items that you would normally do with today's building code right such as i'm just thinking of handrails you would think a handrail has to be 42 inches in order to in order to be placed on a on a porch well if the home is a historic home it matches the existing or matches the sill or the windows those types of things and that they're plausible to be installed in that fashion
9:48due to the historic uh requirements of the code the mass historic commission so with a little bit of forethought probably the electrical contractor or whomever was instrumental in making that decision should have said well why don't we just put them i'm speaking on myself speaking out is the approach i would have taken would have been to get the utility company and say look at historic fix property
10:23we're not going to be allowed to put a meter socket on the outside of the front of that building or you can put it on the sides or on the site that would be fine and then just negotiate with the utility company and we also as a commission would be standing behind you and saying yes here it is mass historic commission for the historic commission da da da da
10:46da on and on and would have given you all that support and the meter would have been kept inside you could still upgrade your system to a hundred amp 200 amp service would have been not an issue so i'm just trying to give you what my thought process is at this point uh and again the authority enforcing the code in this particular situation is the local electrical inspector or you know building department so
11:20okay so and was the utility company approached and said stated this is a historic home we would like to put the meter on the inside there there is um there is some precedence where that has occurred not with this utility company but with a local utility company in in massachusetts that same thing they wanted it on the outside and this was a historic home couldn't do it and a little bit of negotiation they
11:50ended up putting the meter socket on the inside of the home and all all was uh all was fine i wish we had known back then that we were in the historic yeah no i mean honestly that our our issue our you know our i guess you can say our excuse is that we literally didn't realize that we fit within that particular thing i think we're actually the last house that actually sits within the the
12:18boundaries of the no the 40 c on our side yeah we're the last house and we're character wise quite a bit different than all the rest of our large victorian uh neighbors who have you know of course i mean it's a beautiful house but it's seems somewhat different that notwithstanding um i i take your point i think uh you know we would have done things differently because i'm sure it's
12:48for us was more expensive and more work to have them drill through the the foundation and you know put the meter on the outside and it's all ready to go uh once national grid still has to make the connection to the box that we've had installed in the front of the house there's a in the yard um you know i guess the question i have is is our proposal to have um screening um
13:27vegetation uh landscaping to ensure that the box doesn't well the issue in my opinion is that next year that plant could fail or in two years that landscaping could be changed and opened up and then that all would be visible again you know so could but i don't you know that's not our intention our intention is to you know to have this landscaping put in place so that it will really
14:01helped make the house look better i mean at the when we came the the bushes in the front were literally halfway up the window so i mean i couldn't look out and see the street so it wouldn't be much and it's honorable that you're doing this that you're trying to restore and keep the property in historic condition i mean that's that's commendable thank you for that we intend to live in this house uh we're hoping
14:24this is our very last move our grandchildren live close we intend to live in this house for quite a few years we're not planning to remodel it and then you know turn around and sell it definitely not at this point i mean they could pull it back in they could pull it back into the property and that's really what you should be doing right we could talk to ray and see what that
14:45um well how much this is going to cost i would uh i agree connie and i think that's what i was leading up to if you know we cannot enforce uh what you do i mean we can't i don't mean that we can't mandate that you go out and expend this money and things that's not and that's not what we're here for we're here to try and work with the historic conditions work with
15:15the property work with the neighborhood work with you but i would if i was in your position i would get a hold of your electrical contractor talk to the building inspector electrical inspector and get the utility company there and i mean your contractor should have pulled a permit to do that yeah we've got the permits yeah that part was not an issue so was it explained on the permit what the plan was
15:46you know i mean we haven't seen the permit yeah we leave it to them to do it they've been doing a great job in upgrading the rest of the house there's been a lot of work that's had to be done i think the other question is do we know for certain do you know for certain that national grid would be subject to these you know the this these restrictions that you need
16:10already enforcing the code is the electrical inspector okay and the electrical code and the code in massachusetts does not tell you that you need that you're required to put the meter outside it does have to be a certain height off the ground it has to be away from travel so that it doesn't get damaged so it's it's currently installed in the basement below ground it's it's it's significantly below grade so
16:44are you proposing then that we're going to put it into one of our rooms in the morning no no no no the meter would stay in the basement that could that could remain okay instead of the meter going outside it can when the meat is placed outside i was just saying that there are code requirements that it has to be off the grade level a certain a certain height but in the basement that's fine you just
17:10keep that up off the ground four or five feet that's fine so we can um we can certainly talk with ray he can talk to the inspector they can talk to the contractors but what's our recourse if basically national grid says no you know you can't that you can't measure for example if it's red electronically you know i suspect that the you know the thick foundation as well as the ground actually makes that not
17:43possible with the meters down in the basement i'm sure it has to be up high enough to be able to they would have to move it into the back and that's now you're talking about significant increase in the investment which you know i mean i appreciate the concern but i would much rather you know warrant that i'll keep the you know the bushes um you know there so that it's it's hidden
18:10or we can repaint the so that it blends in with the rest of the house i mean there's a number of ways of disguising it but um this is this was an i mean actually a necessary improvement in the house because 65 amps is not sufficient for a modern house and actually you know is dangerous so the value of the house the safety of the house has actually improved significantly by increasing to 200 amps
18:38if the only way we can do that is to have this meter be hiding behind some bushes then i think that that's not a lot to ask frankly just thinking about all the time i had um in my own experience i think the meters can be read within the basement of my electric meters i have two are in my basement i have a solid uh granite foundation um and the house was built in 1914 and
19:11it's red from the street um so right so i don't think there should be an issue reading it from the basement level and i've got the same situation i'm not that far from you you know i have an old why we built in 1897.
19:30and i have a large granite foundation i mean they read them digitally and a lot of it's read electronically through the through the cabling to the cable it's not done electronically to a device on the meter there's a there's a little thing on our window i think it's how it's red my recommendation would be to if you're looking for recommendations is to get a hold of the utility company
20:06i wouldn't i'd volunteer as i'm sure the rest of us would to meet with the utility company and this inspector if you wish to help you get through this but my my position is that not be placed in that location can i just ask one question there's something about a 30-day rule that projects can't be delayed for more than 30 days is that true in the historic district or is that
20:42the other part that's not his direct district you heard of this i mean i'm not familiar with it you've never heard of a 30 days we're not delaying it for 30 days we we sent you notice that there was a probable issue you're here at the meeting the next step would be to get with the utility companies there's no delay here but that doesn't that's not the same as what we're doing here uh that doesn't
21:10apply to this type of of arrangement to the best of my knowledge all right thank you do you know how to contact us if it's necessary uh um i would probably go through carrie i presume that unless unless you think there's a better way for us to contact you sure do you want to be the contact person we're taking a vote on this at this point are we taking a vote we can
21:44we should okay we should take a vote as to what our standing is on this particular situation all right if you want to be the contact person too you need to give them information okay okay all right i can do that well i'll make the motion then to have the meter removed from the front of the property placed back into the basement or the back of the house or some other reasonable location
22:11acceptable to the 40c district correct okay after meeting with the contractor in the electric company so i mean i think everybody needs to have this conversation together yes okay because we can't move it if the electrician says we can't move it or the electrical company says that's what they require yeah what would be the the electrical inspector yes not the electrician no i'm not that's not the electrician it's the
22:52national grid really is there actually it's the electrical system it's already enforcing the code not the utility company their jurisdiction terminates at the first point of attachment so on an outside services that point of attachment where it's at the home and there's a weather head it's where the cable attaches that's the utility company's a property and that they have authority
23:18and that where the head down belongs to the homeowner and the authority enforcing the code for all of that including meter socket meter etc is all up to the inspector or the authority enforcing the code in this case in some towns it's the fire department in this case we have a certified electrical inspectors certified through the state who make those decisions interesting it's curious just simply because i'm
23:47sure ray didn't add on all this extra work just because he likes to do uh extra work so his notes says the electrical inspector is ready to pass it as it meets the code requirements so it meets the code requirements it doesn't meet the historic the 40-seat district requirements okay well i guess the question is if those two are mutually exclusive then that's that's where we're going to run into a challenge thank you
24:13would you like would you like you like me to meet with you when you do i'll give you i'll get off the microphone here we need to can we just vote she she made a motion on the table for uh yes i'll second that motion that's the motion that that situation get clarified and that the media not be placed in the front of that building okay i'll second that motion okay i have a motion in a
24:41second all those in favor all right any opposed okay thank you
25:06okay so we'll wait for all right to come back and then we'll move on thank you
25:27not
25:41the available district commission is under old business a merger of the historic commission historical commissioning historic district commission um so jason i i believe you were going to check into this yes i checked on the uh counselor liberty yeah um and she has said that um she contacted a corporation council attorney ramsey um and so i believe he has signed off on everything she is in the process of scheduling
26:18an ordinance committee meeting and that should i think that should be it perfect hopefully this opportunity happens because so because of it not being so and this is why we have two commissions that are working short and as we can see right now the problem is we have people that are here for a meeting and we are short of person and until that person comes we cannot continue with that meeting and it leaves us in a
26:49bind so that's why it really is important that this happens because it's it's going it will be three months in march i mean three years in march when we started the process of merging the two commissions so three years is a really long time to have to wait for this um so i know you called earlier joyce phone was busy i'm gonna try again when we when we adjourn we're gonna take a five minute break i'm
27:18gonna try calling and then okay now maybe we could do it through a telephone conversation with her i don't i don't know um okay so we what we can do is we can move on to new business we can discuss the dates well we can do the preservation guidelines for oh the preservation guidelines update yes so we um we did hear from dominique on the preservation guidelines and she is um she is going to be sending
27:53something i know she was she was going to send it earlier and and she's had some family issues so she's working on it and she did say i think by by next week she was going to be sending was it next week in the email i didn't see the email oh okay i i believe it's by next week she's going to be sending us um a rough draft of the first
28:15like the first rough draft of everything for us to look over and then we'll go from there and next up so dates for the 2022 meetings we have been meeting on the third tuesday of every month at six o'clock do we want to continue yeah that does that work for him i think so okay i mean we change it when necessary or we have to meet right in a special meeting right but no
28:53like just to keep it at our regular so that we can just request those from uh from the city clerk's office and have that okay that works okay um anything for open discussion for this group anything i need to know like anything no i'm fine okay so as of yet we don't have a date chosen for the january i will see if the third tuesday will be available as far as i know
29:22the other groups seem to be keeping their meetings on the same days so we will plan on it being the third tuesday in january so with that can i have a motion to adjourn the historic district commission meeting it is 6 36 p.m right now um i'll make a motion i don't know a second okay i have a motion in a second all those in favor any hosts okay thank you everyone we're gonna take
29:55a five minute break i'm gonna see if we can get the other member here let me