4.24.2023 Special Charter Review Committee

totally on now let's get let's get rolling hi everybody uh welcome to the special Charter review committee meeting today is April 24 2023. we're located in the hearing room at the government center at one government center Fall River Massachusetts open meeting law pursuant to the open meeting law any person may make an audio or video recording of this public meeting or may transmit the meeting

through any media attendees are therefore advised that such recordings or Transmissions are being made whether perceived or unperceived by those present and are deemed acknowledged and permissible can we please all rise to pledge allegiance to the flag I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and

justice for all thank you everybody and can we take a roll call please starting to my right Laura Washington Marina Brown Tracy Almeida John Mitchell we saved your seat over here Mr Mitchell okay so we can be compact we don't have to show and um Mimi Larrabee is absent she has a prior school committee meeting um commitment and Tim um thank you so much is uh under the weather yeah Campos it is under the

weather and cannot attend is that Kathy Kathy nemkovich is also unavailable today she had a prior Community commitment and uh with that we will take public comment done uh Augie vanished 25 right away Fall River hi Mr Venice uh you have recall on the agenda tonight I would propose and strongly Advocate that uh to be no election to if they may if someone is recalled the current language says the position is vacant

and I think that should stand and then that vacant position to be filled by the vacancy language of the charter and not have a special election to fill it and I say that with some reference to the time frames you know when you have a real it's really a small period of time there you have a six month you can't be recalled in the first six months I think you can't be when you

call them the last six months so you have a one-year time period then you've got to wait 30 days you have 25 or 30 days to go and get signatures and by the time you know you're looking at a two or three month thing so I think and elections cost sixty to eighty thousand dollars which you know the price of democracy being what it is but if you forego the language and use

the language that the president of the city council filter vacancy we're all set and I don't know why anyone would Con in would consider having a something that would be controversial and having another election and then that challenge and that you know if we do away with the election that pretty much solves all the problems with the recall language and what's happening in the past because

you know you can run you can't run I want to be a candidate no you can't be a candidate they go to court well you are a candidate I mean it's ridiculous so if there's a recall and the question is yes we want to recall whatever office it is you know it doesn't necessarily have to be the mayor but that position is vacant according to the language and then you fill a vacancy by the

vacancy language in the charter then you're not violating your own shutter all right thank you thank you Mr Venice thank you and um I'm sorry can Alan did you get to say you were here at uh roll call attendance no sorry I apologize would you like to apologize I was two minutes late I missed the roll call I'm present now Mr Rumsey is present and uh the minutes from March 20th 2023. second

any discussion I just had one um correction to my name it's spelled with an e in several places it's just t-r-e-c-i spelled with an ie in a couple of places second Trac I I'm sorry that's okay it spelled all kinds of different ways so I respond to all of them imagine the problems I have with re and eBay Arena oh yes I just want you to notice how I spelled it thank you thank

you okay there's a motion on the table too and to accept it's been seconded the March 20 minutes all in favor any oppositions to accepting the minutes seeing none passes unanimous unanimously minutes from the March 27 2023 meeting and that was submitted uh with documents submitted by Mr Venice that day um so the minutes from March 23.

a second any discussion seeing none all in favor any oppositions seeing non-motion passes for scheduling purposes there will be a special Charter review committee meeting every Monday in May except for the last Monday so if you need to know the actual dates uh May 8th 5 O'Clock in the hearing room this is the hearing room May 15th no let me go back up May 1st in the atrium at five o'clock May 8th in this

hearing room five o'clock May 15th in the atrium at five o'clock May 22nd five o'clock here so for scheduling purposes there's your May meetings all of them except Memorial Day moving on to number seven uh we have um Ryan Lyons from the elections office here by invitation because the committee had some questions regarding election procedures there was the issue of nomination papers going to the clerks to

the elections office so I want to in I want to introduce Ryan Lyons to the committee I want you to take it from here those were the areas we needed some clarification and questions on so Ryan Lyons take it away thank you madam chairwoman my name is Ryan Lyons and I am chairman and director of The Board of Elections and in the capacity I serve as the chief elections officer for the city of Fall River

happy to answer your questions as best I can um is there a a legal reason why nomination papers I can't find it in the charter right now I will but the charter refers to nomination papers get passed out they get them signed they go to the clerk's office they go to elections they go back to the clerks they travel they go on a field trip that's for sure if you could maybe tell

us why and what the clerk's office in your office thinks about that I think Allison Bouchard and I the city clerk are in total agreement that it doesn't really make any sense whatsoever I mean candidates and Council Washington mayor Mitchell understand this full fully well at this point that candidates who are interested in running for municipal office obtain their nomination papers

from the Board of Elections at a date definite that's been set by the election commission um this year the nomination papers are available for April 4th they have to be obtained by June 28th and then submitted for certification by June 28th is the deadline um so you know once the candidate picks up the nomination papers they get their requisite number of signatures currently mayoral candidates need 300 certified

signatures candidates for school committee and city council need 150 once a candidates Council Washington once she you know eclipses 200 uh 150 certified signatures for example um I will let her know in writing and then she'll come back to my office to pick up her nomination papers to file them with the city clerk's office and that has only been changed since the new language in the charter that was adopted

in 2018 there was no existing statute that requires the nomination papers be filed with the city clerk as Fall River has a long-standing Board of Elections so if the language in the exist Charter were stricken to eliminate the traveling of these nomination papers to the city clerks would it violate any state law any ordinance would revert that to exactly where it was into up until 2018. they never traveled no

everything was not the candidate would return back to the board of elections they will file the nomination papers by signing off at the bottom um full signature address the date and then the uh director would sign off at the at the bottom okay Mr Lyons do you have any idea why that law was changed I have no idea I think commissioner robillard probably has a better answer to that than I do have you been on the

commission I'm not sure why that was recommended by the change but the new Charter but I don't understand the rationale was an Apparent at the time and still is not not really it's something that I have I even had a conversation earlier today with Inez lead the assistant City Clerk and it just doesn't really make much sense to either one of us congratulations there was a movement by five members of

the committee to have the city cork involved they want they called it for extra security but that was that that was the terminology used I thought it was full wish then I think it's even more forward now I think we ought to take it out and after the discussion I'm prepared to make a motion to eliminate the city court from the elections process um for everybody because it's it shows

up if you go to your Charter in section 7-2 um and it's a preliminary election procedures signature requirements the number of signatures of Voters required to place the name of a candidate on an official ballot to be used at a preliminary election shall be as files for the office of Mayor not less than 300 certified signatures for counselor at large or School Committee Member not less than 150 certified signatures

signatures of Voters shall be made on a form prescribed by the board of election Commissioners and shall be made available no not earlier than April 2nd in each preliminary election year those forms shall be submitted to the board of election Commissioners for certification of the names on or before the 14th day preceding the date fixed for the submission to the city clerk these forms

shall be submitted to the city clerk on or before five o'clock in the afternoon on the 45th day prior to the declared date of the preliminary election that is the section of this Charter that we had that question and where it appeared I'm assuming that it appears in uh it's the same for the regular election it would appear in other places on the charter so Dan is is your motion to amend 7-2 to eliminate

submission to the city clerk and just Elections office my emotion would be to eliminate the city Quirk from the elections process period whatever language accomplishes that that's what I want second so emotion has been made to strike the city clerks participation in the election nomination procedure by striking um any submissions to the city clerks that motion was made by Dan seconded by Laura Washington

any further discussion on that Mr Lions had a comment he was trying to make Oh no just commenting on what um commissioner robillard had mentioned before when I spoke with Inez earlier today I just want to clarify what filing with her office meant and she said all she would do was just write down the time that the candidate came to her office she writes a cover letter and runs him back upstairs to the Board of

Elections office where I maintain the nomination papers as part of the public record for three years so she doesn't time stamp anything she doesn't make copies of anything all election and Census records are maintained by the Board of Elections so public records requests for those would go right to the elections office not to the city but to me directly or Allison will get the um

the public records request and forward them to me any other comment seeing none all in favor aye aye anybody opposed striking that language Mr Roblox motion okay all in favor none opposed motion passes then there was another area Mr Lyons and um you would be so kind there was some discussion about timing and we're going to get to the to um 3 8 talks about temporary absence of the

mayor 310 talks about the vacancy in the office of the mayor and then there's the recall provision um that we're going to be discussing tonight in section 8-5 and some of the some of the questions maybe we need to be schooled on how this recall election process works the issue in the courts was there was the question for or against recall the bottom of the ballot had names it was challenged challenged and the

challenges failed if you could explain to the committee exactly that process in any input or comments you have about improving that from the starting points from the starting point um well if any voter is in would like to start a recall petition they would obtain the petitions from the city clerk's office I'm not sure of the percentage required to initiate um a recall election or for the city

council to adopt an order to hold a special a recall election um but I would certify those signatures and return them to the city clerk and then she would notify the petitioners at that moment in time that I think something would be set on to the council agenda and then the council orders the recall I believe so yes and the ballots as they stand now as the charter stands now though the question regarding the recall

and the names are on the same ballot they are correct that's been the case for 2000 the recall in 2014 and in 2019.

and and and that's problematic it depends on who's making the comment okay one way or the other um it's manageable but it's certainly in the eyes of the voters in the hands of the voters well let me ask you this when they had the recall ballot did they have a preliminary or that was just the ballot for it it's one election so you would vote four against the recall of whichever office holder

subject to the recall and then vote for the candidate you'd want to replace him in this case in 2000 based on unprecedented in 2014 and 19 it was the recall for mayor so you'd vote four or against the recall of mayor or it was Flanagan and mayor Correa and then vote for the candidate you wanted to um succeed him in the office but if we're a preliminary election City why isn't there a preliminary for a recalled

candidate's position I don't know okay I'm not sure I think that was one of the questions I mean the last time we had a special election was with the election of Mayor Mitchell in 1991 we had a special election to fill the vacancy when mayor viveros had retired so we had a special Municipal preliminary in April 1991 in a special General in June of 1991.

so if there's a vacancy through death dying other reason or recall there would be a preliminary for these special elections there's always a preliminary what's a time frame do you know like the time frame like let's just say for instance the mayor steps down and we have to have a special election and they notify they notify you I'm so I'm assuming what's the time frame like how long for the nomination

papers then how long for the council to say have an election and then how long to get that election ready well the minimum legal requirement to notify me to hold a special election my statute is 35 days which I would never recommend because it's that statute is really meant for a much smaller Community than Fall River in order to put together you know the entire mechanics to hold any kind of election I believe takes

like a 60-day period which is normally the process between a preliminary election and a general election is there a statutory requirement between preliminary to special like I don't believe sorry as long as it's 35 days between so an office becomes vacant you get notice you start scheduling the preliminary I do have to put together an election calendar so candidates know when to pick

up their nomination papers when they have to be submitted for certification and then go from there and then how long after the preliminary is the regular election is there a time is there a set time under normal circumstances it's roughly two months because we've always had a September preliminary election and a November General how long in 2014 between that preliminary and special I

believe nomination papers were available in October beginning of October and the recall election was held the first or middle week of December so roughly it was about 60 days give or take okay does anybody else have any uh further questions for comments concerns questions one point of clarification that I have is um I'm thinking about is why the different in what case would you have a

preliminary election in which case you wouldn't in the case of a vacancy you don't have a preliminary election but in the case of a recall you do all the way around it's the other way around and why is it different and for what's the rationale why it's different wouldn't it again these things don't really make sense to the average person like myself and so come and call into our office I can think back to 2019 that

was a very common call from voters why it's construed this way and again we haven't had a special election for mayor in 30 years right under preliminary general election guidelines it just would seem like in the instance of vacancy whatever the reason for the vacancy whether it be recall or other it should be sort of standardized across those situations I don't and is there any case

that any of the committee members or you Mr Lyons can think of that that would not be in the best interest of the city of Fall River to not have a to have special preliminaries of General eye my personal opinion I think that would probably serve the city best to go through the normal motions of when voters already are fully aware that we have a preliminary election where the top two candidates go on to contest the

general election under normal circumstances so I think voters would be most well acclimated to that scenario rather than having a recall where all the candidates are put all together and you Electro Canada as well as answering that question at the top of the ballots that's relatively a very unique circumstance that we've only had twice in Fall River where every municipal election is a preliminary for the top

contenders they go on to contest the general election so you would recommend that 60-day period that preliminary and general election sort of to be across the board yes for any vacancy regardless of the reason I think that would work best any thoughts on that no I agree I agree 100 I I don't it's because this Charter said this is what the ballot's going to look like for or against and the names on the

bottom and that's what got challenged in court but Mr Machado sent uh do you sent us those Court decisions right yes and was the challenge because the names were on the same ballot foreign was that we argued that jco career's name should not have been on the second prong of the ballot and the judge basically determined that because the charter was very detailed um the fact that that language was not

in the charter precluded him from interpreting that it that way that he had to be taken off so he denied that the request kind of was like an injunction right and we could have avoided that scenario had we had gone to a preliminary election scenario well if you live in the top two candidates can I yeah comment on the recall yeah yeah um so when I do the minutes I re-watched these readings

and when we talked about the recall um and I think I had talked about my preference at that time was to specifically indicate in the charter that the that the officer subject of the recall could not he could not be reelected in the same and Tracy Almeida said asked uh well do you foresee that there could be other legal challenges and I thought about that for quite a while Tracy and

um I actually thought that it is a little bit I think we're opening up the door possibly if the charter actually says he can't run for office because it's not basically what correct no we have a decision where you know everybody can run for office and he hasn't been recalled yet so if we put that language in that opens the door right um I looked at the um Charter in Taunton

which is a relative has been redone recently and that language is the recall is just that a recall election period oh no real no re-election the vacancy Provisions that apply so it's nice simple and we know I sent around the uh article 8 of the mass declaration of rights which contains the provision that says that talks about a recall so there's clearly if it's just a recall I think um so you've changed my mind

and I think it should just be a recall election period and then the vacancy Provisions are coming nice and simple it's authorized by the Declaration of Rights and nobody can nobody can challenge that I would disagree with that absolutely um as far as nobody can challenge that I think there's some very high legal hurdles with that what referring to the vacancies and the office Provisions yes

of course anybody anytime there's a vacancy they can challenge it but not after a recall it makes the office vacant they're concern well I mean it's kind of like what I said before uh if correct me from wrong Ryan if there's a death in the office of Mayor we go through the the two-step procedure that we just outlined before right three eight and three ten right so if it's within five months of the

election correct yeah but you don't I mean you would think that a vacancy by way of death would be the most immediate need to have a new mayor elected and we still go through the two-step process right but the special preliminary in general correct okay I mean that's what right yes okay I mean I guess my major problem that I keep trying to re-emphasize here is I have a serious problem with the recoil procedures in

general and the reason why is you know we have a representative democracy so we have a vote where the majority picks our representative leader and then it's only for a two-year period we're not talking about a lifetime appointment a lifetime election you're talking about two years and I know it's not the easiest procedure but the reality is you're talking about five percent of registered

voters it takes 10 people to start the process and only ten percent I'm sorry five percent of registered voters registered voters that vote that voted registered register vote I just checked that all right so that'd be like 2500 people a little less in the political game having five percent of the people dislike you is a given I mean we we talk about most elections in general like a 60 40

election between two people is a pretty significant margin of victory for the person against the 60 but that means 40 did not vote for that person anyway so the problem I have is that we have a democracy and if you're allowing five percent to change that is that truly a democracy because what I foresee in the future is that every single mayor will be recalled if it's so easy to do every single mayor because

1854 yeah because people don't didn't understand the system as well now we've had two in how many elections right we've had two very very quickly and I don't care how popular or how perfect you are as a mayor I could foresee a future where five percent of registered voters get together have a recall election and then we're going to aside from the waste of money um you know you have another election so I think if

we're going to allow the recall to be so simple to do a five percent then I think we should treat it just like every other one have you ever gone out to get signatures for a recall it's not simple never will yeah suggests that a five percent minority won't mobilize to do this anytime their candidate Is Not Elected I I think is actually short-sighted I think it should be extremely difficult

to override the Democracy that voted we had an election we voted for a mayor to overturn that it should be extremely extremely high hurdles I'm never going to be in favor of making it easier I don't believe we were just off and away so I thought I respect you cut me off three times while talking so I have a go ahead Miss Washington so I actually respect what you're saying

um Council Ramsey I have a question so I feel there's like two problems here so the first problem being the um what we do after recall has happened so let's say just for argument's sake it was like 50 instead of five percent of people had to do that would you say if it was the numbers were higher that the best process would be treated like any other election I agree those numbers are

small five percent is small in my opinion that is a I can find ten thousand people that don't like me today I mean it is what it is so those numbers are small but let's just say those numbers weren't that small that process would you agree that the best process for that would be um a regular proceeding of a preliminary and then a regular election or we go to section

three eight and three nine I agree with the the Dual election part I guess because even though it did sit it didn't sit well with anybody that we had a recall that 51 voted to recall our prior mayor and then that mayor won again the truth is I think um even without I think the Judge would always allow you can't stop people from running for office I think any judge no matter what

it reads their excuse they gave that day on that written opinion I think to allow a recalled mayor not to run again is never going to happen but it's only 5 5 to only five percent of the voters to get it to if yes 10 voters you need the signatures of five percent of the registered voters just to get that process so I I want to recall Ryan I get my 10

people we run to Allison's office we get up the paperwork and then we have to go out and we have to get if there's how many registered voters approximately fifty six thousand so if there's 56 000 what's 5 of 56 000. 25. so you need 2500 signatures they go back to the office they get certified that's just to get to the city council to have the city council order a recall

election no I I understand what you're saying listen I was part of that recall process for one of the Mayors um not the first one but but I do respect what he's saying it is a small number I I want to it well it is for over to an election then I think I have to get a thousand for Compton commission and that's a big effort but to overturn an election 2500 I think is

the person that's the subject of the recall will prevail if the majority of the voters say no you're right but it's still it's still seventy thousand dollars each pop that's what he's saying you can't put a price on it a financial price on Democracy no yeah I've done this three times yeah you're not offering a legal opinion either all right one at a time kind of I interpret them to be a little bit

negative toward recall elections but I have to remind everyone and I sent around a copy of article eight Mr machado's documents were sent out on the email titled Machado documents two pages and the Declaration of Rights Article Lake indicates that uh in order to keep elected officials from becoming oppressors and I use some language um they specify a recall provision is available

Mr rumsey's question that's a different discussion so the recall provision is guaranteed by the mass Declaration of Rights and I don't think we can eliminate it from our job but as Mr Rumsey suggested it's possible that we could talk about upping the number of signatures or you know so that it's not such an easy thing yes I agree I agree and I wasn't suggesting to take that away it was kind

of twofold one is I think it's too easy to have a recall election which is costly but number two and I do I think your solution may be better than what exists but if we can accept and I think we do that a court is not going to allow the so the recalled mayor to not rerun you know everybody has the opportunity of life I don't know why would you agree with that

it's already happened in California I think the problem is that on that ballot on that recall ballot to prohibit him from running he hasn't been recalled yet correct right so that's right so he has a right to run he's already out and about it until no that's enough what I'm saying is Well response to Tracy I'll meet his suggestion right I was thinking about the legal ramifications and by saying he

can't run for office that's that's a lawsuit it's a lawsuit if you if you permanently prevent them from running but I'm our Charter now says office holder recalled any person who's been recalled from an office or who has resigned from an office while recall proceedings were proceeding against said office holder shall not be appointed to any office within two years after such reached call or such

resignation I think I don't think it's legally challenged to say they cannot appear just on that next ballot yes yes if he's been recalled all I'm saying is we've had an election there recalled yeah then we have this we're gonna have a special election yeah I I think I don't think there's a challenge to not being able to be on that next ballot okay because it doesn't make sense why

would you someone's recall but then they get to run yeah when you elect someone to replace it in the same yeah it makes no sense that racist issues right so if you're having a special election they're not because the office is vacant because of a recall they cannot be on that new special right correct but if there's a regular election the following November they can run they can run on that next one and I

think Dartmouth is like that and I've been I wouldn't be surprised if taunton's is like that that says the recalled officer cannot appear on the immediate next special election but that does not preclude them from the following November so can we just clean that up for anyone watching at them well we're not we don't have a motion yet Mr Lyons was nice enough to come down and answer our recall special prelim

um we're gonna and we haven't read the recall but I think we need to just clarify what we're trying to say right now if I could just be sitting here the problem I have with what Mr Machado suggested is this I think it's going to make it even more political in in actually increase the chance of recall I mean I'm trying to if you let's think about a national level and they're going

the same direction we are to but let's assume you have a Republican president it covers some recall procedure that it then went to the president of the Senate which could be a Democrat didn't mean to tell me that you don't think the president's going to be the Republican the president's going to recalled every single time if you know exactly who it's going to be handed to I mean in this situation you're talking

about vacancies going to be handled by the city council president right so not only are you dealing with a recall for hopefully good reasons but now you make it political because you know who's already won the next election you are you're you could you could you know who your hand your hands because you prefer the president of the city council you're making it more likely that the recall is

4y considered invalid reasons because you just want somebody else not that they're doing a bad job that concerns me too right and I was thinking about that the very person that would be receiving and making a decision on that recall is a person that would be stepping into that office under a recall and if we're using the provisions that are outlined in the charter who cut the other way the um

voters could say we don't want the council president and it could actually keep in America maybe should be recalled you don't know how it's going to go I agree with you Allen one it's a two-year term the city already stuff is from a lack of stability I mean we've gone through Mayors in the last 10 or 12 years and it's affected us there's no question um you compare it to New Bedford where

they've had six eight now 10 or 12 year term Mayors um and what they've been able to do economically and not so I do think there's some virtuous some stability I think two recalls in a decade is an awful lot it is it's a lot the role of government is not to overturn it every half hour um I think the number of signatures and I agree with Danny I have to get a

thousand and it's Monumental 2500 is Monumental I think it should be 5 000 or so ten percent I think it should be a hard thing to overturn a man the effect of it is that it just stops city government once the mayor who's recalled that's it you know yeah there's an incentive to do big popular things but the overall effect particularly in the city this size is it's already hot enough in two years I

mean almost always running very short time frame to get the five percent of signatures no then that's part of it it's a political no it's more than 10 days wasn't it twenty days yeah but um I'm just saying this lack of stability is is a problem um and some of it's been odd circumstances but to have been affected by recall one certainly for reasons that went beyond a recall but the first was

kind of I in my opinion sour grapes over things um there were other ways to perhaps undo fees that were charged in that um but I just think it's something we got to consider whether or not I don't know Alan did if we consider it and let's say uh can we make recommendations and like tears can we go to the council and say here's our grand designs but overall we think five percent should be ten percent

and eight five could that be acted on more speedily than five years from now is that up to the council to counsel the mayor and the AG's office it has a whole process it's probably it would take at a minimum six months and that's ads getting that through because it can sit up at the AG's office for up to 90 days yeah we we should make whatever recommendations we're going to

make yeah we should make them here and send them with the report yeah I agree I'm just wondering if some uh yeah there's others yeah does anybody else have any further questions for Mr Lyons all right seeing none we're going to go to section 8-5 the recall let me read it into the record um section 8-5 the recall provision of the Fall River Charter a application any holder of an elective office may be

recalled there from by the voters of the city as herein provided no recall petition shall be filed against an officer within three months after the officer takes off nor in the case of an officer subjected to a recall election and not removed thereby until at least 270 days after that election I'm going to read the section and we'll discuss it I'll read the section and discuss it

is there any discussion about section A I have to tell you I don't get the language of the second sentence why can't it just say no recall within three months after they take off or at least 100 270 days out is there any reason for that extra language anybody no that I remember I mean I said oh 30 25 to 27 meaning I can't well let me just say in general the last

Java commission was in my opinion very hung up on numbers and calendars and that's why you've seen those numbers on that it just said it seems confusing like like any holder of an elective office any holder of an elective office may be recalled by the voters it's a simple sentence like I I don't know why this isn't user friendly I agree and then right we're going to do is make it use

okay go through the language and clean it up okay you know so that's not something I don't think it doesn't need to be by motion I just it just you know it just feels like it's wordy but the second sentence I mean do we have to have until at least can it just say you can't start recall until after they're in office for three months or something to that effect do we need this second

part because you know nor in the case of an officer subjective recall election not removed by a bio totally I mean what is that bull that's a double recall that's what they're saying well I I don't even know if we need it by motion we've we've made a motion earlier that when they sit down to write the draft that they can take grammatical and syntax license with this Charter

okay and so I know that we made that motion and passed it that they're going to be able to make this user friendly and then it's going to be reviewed and it's going to be reviewed it's never going to go anywhere until we evolve it I don't understand one's 90 days and then one's 270 days well I don't that's because if you don't get the first bite you got to

wait nine months and then you can come back and try again yeah see that's problematic problem but if they didn't like you the first time you got to wait right so it on a can it just be like any office can be recalled by the voters and two but you can't start a recall no as I understand what it means is if I get elected and four months later they try to recall

many in six months later they don't get me they then gonna wait nine months before they within that same term you can try it again but I think they run out of time because I'm trying to find them that's my problem with this is there any provision to strike that or is that a requirement that uh

I'm afraid it's gonna happen sometime all right so I just wanted to bring that maybe to the clerk's attention if we can clean up a and then B recall petition any 10 voters of the city May file with the city clerk and affidavit containing the name of the officer or officer sought to be recalled a statement of the grounds for recall the city clerk there shall thereupon deliver two said voters making the affidavit

copies of petition blanks demanding such recall printed forms of which the city clerk shall keep available said blank shall be issued by the city clerk with it with the clerk's signature and official seal attached said blank shall be dated and addressed to the city council shall contain the names of the ten persons to whom they are issued the name of the officer or officers whose recall is sought the grounds of the

recall estate in the affidavit and shall demand the election of a successor to such office that's where it comes from I'm sorry let me go strike my second part there a copy of the petition shall be entered in a record book to be kept in the office of the city clerk the recall petition shall be returned and filed with the city clerk within 20 days after the filing of the affidavit and shall have been signed by

at least five percent of the voters of the city who shall add to their signatures the street and number of their residences the city Kirk shall submit the petition to the board of election Commissioners in the city and the board shall fork with certify the number of signatures which are names of the voters of the city discussion please where did five can I ask the question wait a five percent

where did five percent come from did their previous Charter have uh I have the previous Charter I don't know I don't know if it had a fulfillment previous China didn't have any resolving but at all you are correctness so how did it dictate on work well this didn't come until 18 right recall what Provisions were used in four teams just relied on state law stay cool at five percent

is is state law five percent for offices well they can impeach so how do they no there's a provision in there to remove elected officials they just don't lay out the procedure yeah one too laid out the number 37 minimum maybe it was that forty thousand dollar uh consultant that they had said here's some New Jersey language what a waste of money here we go don't get them going so some discussion about that are we not

ha do we want to raise it five percent to ten percent do we want to make it five percent to one percent I don't know is there some discussion here assuming it's not inconsistent with state law and there's no Provisions for a specific number of thresholds then I think the there's a general feel I mean the committee that we that needs to change if if there was a really really bad

elected official it's going to be easy to get 10 voters it really will be if you if someone is you know breaking the laws left and right grossly you're going to get 10 so um I don't see it if it's that much of a problem to up it to 10 personally I'll tell you the other language in here that is problematic is that it says it it says in this be that the names of the

people that are going to replace them are on that same ballot so it says um hang on let me go back there I was just reading it I commented I shouldn't have I don't think it says that it says in shall demand the election of a successor to such office it doesn't seem right so right but I mean so that's just a language then they're not listing the names I don't think they have the

listening I mean the only thing I would point out is you know they have to say the grounds for the recall um but there's really no threshold they just have to State anything there's no ability and I'm not saying there should be but the idea is they make any submission I don't think Mr Lyons can then use his judgment to say well that's not sufficient ground so if you're going

to have a a no to low threshold then I think the percentage should be higher than five percent but if I can quickly going back to a the more I think about it I think the numbers should be consistent it shouldn't be three months for a brand new mayor who hasn't made any mistakes but 270 days if you've already taken one shot at it yeah I mean we swipe or no need to look a little bit

closer into but I mean why not six months across the board like you can't recall within the first six months I've taken office or I'm with you on that I mean I thought three months was a little soon too it took a little while for eign recall I think is a little bit of misnomer and it gets people thinking you know what it really is is a petition to have to get a new marriage maybe we

should call it petition for removal no I mean well I think recall is probably a state word that we're using here but you know declaration we just want to make it where a mare that gets replaced is for actual reasons as opposed to political reasons and that's That's the basis of most of what I'm saying here it shouldn't be a political game your person wasn't elected let's take another

shot at the Apple it should be for real reasons and because we are removing that person from office I I do like petition for removal because everything else that citizens do home rule is called a petition right and you know if anything that citizen anything that's motivated by citizens to do they always call them petitions right valid questions ballot questions our petitions isn't it a petition for

removal I want to change Paul's going to address it right now go ahead Paul's review I just reviewed article eight to make sure what the language was um and uh so in order to prevent those who are vested with authority from becoming a presses they shall establish to cause the public officers to return to private life that sounds so nice

it would be also returned to private yeah right so removal from public office would be consistent with that language yes and very clear for the voters I think the issue on the table shares that is around Clarity for voters yes for example I mean I you're overturning an election that's what I right like that's what you're doing so you're overturning an election petition for removal from office

I just like them because everything else citizens do are petitions they across the board if a citizen if if a citizen initiative comes before on the city council it's always in the form of a petition if it goes on the ballot it's it's always called a petition so and maybe we can get people to stop thinking about the bad things that happened in Fall River with recalls recalls recalls and you know like we rebranded

and we make it new and improved in all due respect the council chairwoman I think calling it a petition to remove from office is not going to bring anything but a bunch of people saying we are removing you from office and trying to get signatures I'm just saying just leave that recall at that point I mean it's a I mean that's I I think the name is the least of the problem here we

could Rebrand every brand uh some further discussion I don't know I'm still discussing before we start motions uh and we're only talking about being see but look at it calls it the recall petition there's no Provisions in here about the five percent so that suggests to me well it isn't B look at 8-5 B go down to the third to last sentence and that's just to get the petition

to the city council okay so it is in the job that's it it's five percent certified to get to the city council here's my other question though if a petition is filed by citizens and it goes to the city council can the city council say no we don't want an election can they oppose it is a question to anybody I haven't looked at that but I would be shocked if the city

the whole point of this is that the the we're talking about the majority right I understand this is the citizens of where I'm allowing the citizen petition for a recall that then you know non-politicians can say no I mean the whole point of this is a see that movement that sounds like they'd be violated right if they if they stopped it all right and the council has no vote on it it means

they do have to a vote to approve to have a an election that's it but I mean I'm sure they could play games with that but they don't have an up and down vote on it they can't say no we don't want they can't say no ever okay not according to this they just got to set it up within a time period but so yeah they could delay it for months what is the time period

and should there be one let's see the if Frisk goes to election they have to certify it then they send it to the city council without delay and the council shall fought with give written notice of the receipt they have to give notice to the mayor or the official and if they do not resign within five days they ought to recall election to be held on a Tuesday fixed

by the council at least at least 65 days probably about two weeks so so he says about two weeks is sort of having my office maybe you give the recall person 10 days to think about it because maybe within 10 days somebody can convince them hey it's time to go helpful doubtful I think that I'd like to thank you I'm curious to see what people think about upping the five percent to ten percent

is that too early to ask that question no it's not I'd like to move along I I make a motion to up the five percent to ten percent so there is there some further discussion we'll go to the north recall election yeah can you give us some numbers for the March 12 2019 recall election had uh 13 937 ballots cast it was a 30 trance for the recall that was for 2019 recall

election so 30 came out and voted so that at the time we had forty seven thousand forty three registered voters go to what we call sure uh 2017 I've put for both elections side by side so for the November 2017 general election we had 15 167 ballots cast with a 32 turnouts how many voters do we have all together back then uh in 2017 we had 47 977. and now we have how many voters

approximately just under 56 000 but I didn't check for today so we have 56 000 voters we're getting a 30 something percent turnout the numbers for 2014. yeah okay please okay so for the I'll start with 2013. so for the general election in 2013 we had forty seven thousand eight hundred ninety one registered voters with 12 713 ballots cast with uh which equal to 27 turnouts uh the following year we had the

December 16 2014 recall election that's 2014 now 2014 correct uh we had a total of 16 736 voters a ballots cast so we had 50 252 registered voters and a 33 turnouts so it was a higher turnout percentage than the previous um municipal election and then give us two 2019 again the June was 2019 before uh 2019 uh week for ballots cast was 13 937 with a 30 turnout how many total

voters forty seven thousand forty three I think it's pretty telling that in both circumstances more ballots were cast in the recall elections than the general elections for in both instances only in two thousand four percent rate so that's very interesting to me it shows that the recall moved forward because there was already a general consensus that the large majority of the voters wanted that recall to happen

so moving to ten percent would not be a big deal it would up it well if you move to 10 you're talking about between five and six thousand votes five or six thousand signatures that would take a significant amount of time okay absolutely Dan thank you whatever the required number of signatures is you must turn in more because you're always gonna have signatures that are rejected so whether

it's 300 signatures for man whether it's 150 for school committee city council you have to get at least I'd say Faithfully 10 above the requirement oh that's exactly what I tell the candidates now so so when you say it's 300 it's 300 certified signatures it's a hundred and fifty certified signatures if if you've never been on the ballot or never undertaken uh going out and getting signatures it's it's a lot more

work than it seems I'm just saying it's two very different things 300 certified so you're gonna get a lot more than 300.

so let me just State my position here so being a part of the recall and the second recall people are very passionate as you can see by the people that come out and vote on these recall elections they have something to say about the city so to think that if a recall is happening and people that are behind the recall and both are very passionate and the community is very passionate so I

don't think that if there was a mayor that was doing things that was unjust in the city that people are going to sit back and not want to sign it you're looking to find the people to sign those signatures so asking for 10 of the signatures should yes it's difficult I hate getting signatures but um if this is a really important issue for the city you are going to not have a

problem finding signatures it's it's a lot of work it's a lot of work to run an election it should be a lot of work to overturn an election and the people should come out in drove to sign that paper and then go out and vote if you cannot find the people to sign that paper then by all means then there is no election I I agree that it's a lot of

work 2500 signatures and it's an even more of a work with 5000 but the citizens of Fall River are very passionate people and if they believe in something they're going to fight for something if they do not they're not so you're talking about five percent so how many if it's ten percent five thousand signatures in 20 days well 5500 if you're going to get a 10 buffer 5500 signatures that you have to get in 20

days and then it has to be certified in is it two-week time turnaround time that's significant and I I mean I'm I I don't know I I can see both sides uh there's a there's a financial implication here to having it at five percent that's the biggest thing you're not overturning an election with this number all you are doing is sending it back to the voters the effect on city government

is in incredible yes it stops everything but I mean now you haven't you may not have a government for those two years yes you have a mayor now restock campaigning fixing going back and you know for Windows I mean stuff like that that was nonsense you drove someone out over Petty things no I know but then the next one was called foreign

you're going to get these signatures but to throw someone out because of Windows and glass windows that Allen now gets to look out I mean it's ridiculous do we have some public comments and it's affected this is a tremendously um I think Mr Venice we're reopening public comment just for the record except uh I think maybe that percentage you know going from five to ten would work better at least in my mind

if that 10 was 10 of the voters that voted in that election not if you've got fifty thousand right and you take only thirty thousand voters you take 10 into 30 that's three thousand now if you take five percent of the fifty thousand that's twenty five hundred so you know the number is a little bigger but it and why should people that couldn't be bothered to vote for the mayor all of a sudden or the

person involved all of a sudden be so interested that oh you know half half of the people didn't even vote in the last election but you know upwards of 25 to 30 000.

that would be catering to the people that didn't vote in the last election and the other thing that you know we're doing this recall stuff but you got to be careful what you're saying here because there's a school committee that can be a can uh in the city's Council so now you're talking about you're talking about uh preliminary elections well suppose you have five people running first

fight people running in the election to replace the school committee member do you take off now what do you do with all five well that's why how many how many of that do you keep the top two oh yeah you're gonna think that's gonna be like right it's easier for me to accept that then uh say 10 across the board because I know I went out every day from nine to

five it sure is down to not then made a rotary down there you know and I got 1800 signatures in the 20 days but yeah it's a lot of work today I don't care yeah and I we were there and thank God that the new Shopping Center opened up because there's no we never would have made it that new shopping center didn't open up thank you the big thank you Mr

Brown with that I see is the reconciling you know who actually voted and then who actually called for the recall just reconcile who actually voted you're just working for a number okay okay

yeah it doesn't matter so there's a motion on the table uh there's a motion on the table for Section 8-5 the recall position small B to re to increase the number of signatures required to 10 of the voters that motion was made by Laurel Washington seconded by John Mitchell roll call can we have a role is there any further discussion can we have a roll call vote please Dan we'll start to my left to my right

no Mr Machado no Mr Mitchell yes yes no I was going to abstain does the ex-official vote of this

to get all and Tracy laughs okay yes okay so it's a tie a quiet then motion motion dies on the side but we have two more people to phone we have three three okay they're not here so they will be I'll make a motion next week moving on to small section b um I wanted to make an amended motion oh um and I was going to uh recommend that Mr Dennis's language be used and that

the increase to 10 of the voters that had voted in the election that resulted in the recall the person being so there is a Nouveau motion because that other motion is dead so there's a new motion made by Mr Machado I just have to figure out some math that the language of 8.5 recall is there a second to that motion saying no second second interest for the second second minute democracy somebody's second no second Paul

All Right Moving On two recall section 8.5 recall small section c can I ask Mr Lyons a question be sure to move on one of the issues so when uh Mr when former mayor Correa was initially going to contest the recall and that would go before the Board of Elections yes it was okay um he didn't follow through on that but what he was saying was he was questioning the validity of the

signatures and one of the issues he was going to raise but we never had that hearing was um that more people than the 10 voters who signed the petition were collecting signages so what was the question is that a conflict of interest for no I think aside from the original team thought it was pretty specious the petition could get signatures no one knows so I don't even think that would

be like a valid objection shipping before the Board of Elections because it was like nomination papers petitions you distribute them so have your copies obtained from this company Washington is collecting signature

recall section little section c recall election if the petition shall be found and certified by the city clerk to be sufficient the city clerk shall submit the same with this clerk certificate to the city council without delay in said city council show forthwith give written notice of the receipt of the certificate to the officer or officers sought to be recalled and shall if the officer or

officer does not resign within five days thereafter thereupon order a recall election to be held on a Tuesday fixed by the said city council at least 65 days after the date of the city clerk's certificate that a sufficient petition is filed provided however that if any other city election is to occur within 75 days after the date of the certificate the city clerk shall postpone the holding of said

recall election to the date of such other election if a vacancy occurs in said office after a recall election has been ordered the election shall nevertheless proceed as provided in this provision

I definitely certainly would hope that that gets cleaned up I think the timelines are open I think so too and I like that idea of 75 of these the 65 days notice before an election I think is fantastic what if there's a preliminary and Final including that I think would work well so it'd be 65 plus both within 60. 65 days with the preliminary in a general yeah I think that would definitely work

you would do both within that it'd be comparable to what we do now between September and November general elections oh all right so no uh no issues with little C moving on except for the wordiness yeah okay D recall of one or more office holders the question of recalling any number of officers may be submitted at the same election for each officer whose recall is sought there shall be a separate ballot the

nomination of candidates to succeed an officer whose recall is sought the publication of the warrant for said recall election and the conduct of such elections shall be in accordance with the provisions of the general laws well one of one of the things is I hope we put what general law goes in these number one I I don't I know Mr Machado will clean that up with uh mentioning which specific general laws but

I I still don't understand what that means that you can just recall one or more well no I think that Mr Venice brought up what if you're recalling three school committee like they just so there'd be just two steps you would have three balances

and then the way it is now you would have Shepherd candidates on the sub ballot yeah couldn't you have couldn't you have if if there were separate petitions they'd have to be separate petitions but if there was separate petitions filed for three City councils to recall three to three accounts could you couldn't you put those questions on the same ballot according to this stuff physically I believe so physically yes

absolutely but then you have the question Mr Venice raise I want you to get past the recall when you have the election is it vote for three you'd have to say vote for three right because well and their successors decided on whether we haven't gotten to the ballot yet but my other problem though with that is it says this sentence the nomination of candidates to succeed an officer whose recall is sought

the publication of the warp is said recall election in the conduct of the action shall be in accordance with the provisions of the general laws I just don't think that sentence needed to be in that because this D is just telling us one or more have to have separate ballots do you think the warrant must be posted seven days before election public notification for any election is at least seven days before

so number D just says recall of one or more office holders why doesn't it just say separate ballots for each one I'm sorry but I can't speak for the the worthiness of my former colleagues it was an absolute disaster I love them I am so we could take because it's this sentence it's the second sentence does it need to be there well the bigger question to me is it doesn't incorporate B because

there's no provision in C in I see rather there's no provision in D is that for how long you have and that type of thing why don't we change second sentence two to for each officer which we call is sword there shall be a separate question on the ballot is that a is that a is that emotion separate petition separate question on one balance okay okay you've got three City councils child Council Laura Washington be

recalled yes or no I'm sorry no as an example I apologize

previous election well what makes that into a motion that if there are other offices being recalled at the same time that they're just separate questions on the same level second look like Western Madam chair please thank you may have to ask the questions so Mr Machado just to clarify your motion you're not talking yet about who possible successes would be or how they are determined correct

that's that's in the next session we're just talking about the recall question I I understand but regarding this motion at this second you're only talking about separate separate questions for each recalled person correct yes thank you and second the motion so a motion made by Mr Machado D is just going to say can you say it again say the motion again um for each officer whose recall was

sought shall be a separate question on the ballot for each person right okay person to be recalled motion made by Paul seconded by uh Dan robillard any further discussion seeing none all in favor aye aye aye anybody opposed okay so you know what oppositions we're gonna get fixed moving on to E office holder the office holder shall continue to perform the duties of the office to which elected until the

recall election if not recalled the office holder shall continue in the office for the remainder of the unexpired term subject to recall as the charter provides if recall the office holder shall be deemed removed upon the qualification of a successor to the elected office who shall hold office during the unexpired term if the successor fails to qualify within 30 days after receiving

notification of election to the office the recalled office holder shall thereupon be deemed removed in the office vacant

certified

yeah but I the verse sentence is fine the second sentence is fine right but I don't I don't he's just recalled as soon as the ballot is as soon as the results have been certified right as soon as the results have been certified the office should be vacant right just that's it and that's it because then there opens up some opportunity for that person to remain in that office until the successor is named

which is inappropriate how long or after an election is if a candidate for example or contested it there was a two-day period to contest the election yeah it was a great so so that's a major concern there as well before certification certifying the election uh whether by Court proceeding or from a candidate requesting a recount that might eliminate the time frame so on Monday There's an election

and all the ballots are in when do you have a certified result within 10 days so so 10th day certify and um Laura's recalled how long does she have after that to say no no no no no no I'm challenging it it would be before the certification So within the 10 days she'll say yeah so the objection to the election or certification would have to take place before the certification deadline 10 days before five o'clock

if you what can certify those results earlier must you only certify on the 10th day I believe it's a 10-day period for certification so that that has to remain open that 10 days fixed so what does objecting to those results entail um for a number of reasons number of legal reasons whether the margins were too close or there was a question about absentee ballots for example any a number of possible legal hypothetical

support Canada would want to contend so where a number of candidates would want to contest the election I'm only thinking recount close in terms of a close margin for example where a candidate might request a recounts hypothetically I don't like to say that word but just for instance is is it certified pending the appeal of the objection it's once it certified it's past the deadline to contest

how but what I'm trying to get at is let's say she contests it and then yeah and then she can test it and what does she take it to court do you no she would file um an objection with the board of election Commissioners who would have to listen to her objections and render her decision to either sustain or over her objection and that happens if it's a recount then it's a different process

when everything has to pull together and then we would have to conduct a recounts process and you would make that decision I'm making notes so that officers after 10 days after 10 days I mean the last time the office is deemed vacant if the certification is we have a recounts for two elections in 2012 that was overseen by chairwoman Kamara for the race for state representative and then for Governor's Council yeah

however Municipal recounts I mean they were very common practice going back into the 80s and 90s almost every municipal election had a recount for the last season school committee in city council that's where I first heard I was amazing actually yes please okay thank you Mr Robot that's the Lions yes uh isn't it mandatory just talking I'm specifically speaking of recount now if the uh result of the

election is within a certain percentage one to a half whatever it is it isn't there a mandatory recount that would have to be requested by the candidates or a candidate to request a reader Ms doesn't have mandatory so it has to be requested correct no it would be up to the candidate to request a recounts for regardless of the office the Municipal elections we haven't had a recount for

30 years actually was 1991 yeah okay and if there's a recount for any office whether it's state or local uh how long does the Canada the either of the candidates have to request the recount I'm not sure of the time frame in terms of what everyone has to be requested or completed both I'll have both I think your request I believe it has to be done within that the period I know for a prime for a

state election it would be four days uh the support day certification deadlines would have to be done within that four day period for a state primary and then it's going to be the 10-day period for a general election um for Municipal elections it's also 10 days of our request for a recount would have to be submitted to my office and then we would proceed with the recount once the petitioner um requested it and

they would have to obtain um a requisite number of signatures in each Ward I believe it's five registered voters in each Ward and that varies if it's a partisan primary yeah so you you do need to get signatures to to initiate a a uh appreciate uh correct a Recon yeah correct and it's a little bit different with the primary because it is partisan understood thank you very much are there

any other further questions thank you so um I would like to make a motion that this office holder subsection e my motion is that that would read as follows the office holder shall continue to perform the duties of the office to which elected until the recall election results are certified if not recalled they continue in the office for the remainder of the unexpired term period so the only thing you're saying is but

the person that's recalled stays in office and so it's certified certified and that's what I think that in it you know and if it fails he stays there until the next election that that is the entirety of your emotions that is that I have you know um yeah no though there's plenty of conversation that was my only motion I just thought that the I just thought that you know I I probably

probably need to add that the office is deemed vacant upon these recall election certifications or something to that effect but the rest of this language in that I don't think needs to be there so my motion is so is there a motion yeah right no good question Tracy I prefer to take one piece at a time all right so this is Tracy's question Tracy go ahead good take one piece at a time well do

you have a do you want to modify that motion because before I make the motion again I'd certainly I just think that there's a lot in there again where we're about to say something about there was the certification of the election results at the beginning of the sentence or the beginning of the paragraph but we may want to reserve it till the end of the paragraph because in all instances oh yeah in G yeah the end

of e like so whether or not the person is successfully recalled we still must wait for any action until the election results are certified whether that person is deemed continuing for the unexpired term or the office is deemed vacant right so I think putting the certification piece up front it would have to be repeated at the at the end of that paragraph and then hence tell me what you think it should read yeah

um well we could end it just without saying within there was just not don't talk about the certification at that point and then go on to say if recalls the office holder shall be deemed removed upon the qualification or see I I want to leave that quality yeah the successor fails to qualify then the office is vacant after their election results are certified within 10 days of the election comma within 10

days of the election to make it clear that the election results are certified within 10 days so we're referencing is that a general law we're referencing the general law so the time has expired to object or contest the election when certified based on what my colleague just offered can I ask a question yeah please do thank you uh Mr lions or whoever can answer I don't really care uh what happened now

if someone is recalled okay what happens the day after a recall nothing until the election under the circumstance is certified what in other words we've had two recalls the medal will recalls what happened the next day I believe they remained in office until a set period of time I'm not mistaken I'm not sure what the time frame one was I'm just trying to see what the current process is versus what we're trying to

do and delineate the differences without the laborious minutia of all this language right I just my motion I I just I like your emotions right and with all the respect of my colleague her thought complicated that motion I just the the essence of my motion I just wanted it to say that the office holder shall continue to perform the duties of the office to which elected until the recall election

results are certified agree if they're recalled I'm trying to see if that's even though it's not there I'm trying to see if that's the current process that was followed in in the last two recalls all right even though it's not in that great document correct and I say that in jest well the last one it didn't matter right no because he was still involved and stayed in right what about when the first one

there was no challenge right so after 10 days predecessor um I believe the new mayor was inaugurated within 10 days yeah or within a two-week period I think almost the next day but I think into this circumstance I believe it mirrored um the certification process until um certified the election then it was still it was still based upon unofficials it was still unofficial until it was

certified Mr Allison Mr Rumsey I just think this part's going to be very difficult to write accurately until we decide the giant question mark which the ballot no which is can the person who's recalled run again no and you know that's what the legal issue does come in you know if you have a recall petition that does not provide a real basis for it other than x number of signatures I I do see

challenges Court challenges to preventing somebody from running for office um so I mean you can't really write that one accurately right I just question mark I just wanted to read to be that they they have to stay there until this recall election is over there's just no doubt about that I mean they told the results are certified right one way or the other right I just wanted it to be a

simple time frame because as it is now look at the questions we're kind of unclear so we solidify that these are only recommendations but they're just recommendations are you prepared to make that in the form of emotion I am I'm going to say it I'm just going to say it one more time the office holder shall continue perform the duties of the office to which elected until the recall election results are

certified if not recall the office holder shall continue in it for the remainder on the unexpired term if recalled the office shall be deemed vacant and they're removed that's it that's all I want to put there I mean is that emotion that's emotion second so yes and the discussion so assume hypothetically you have successful recall yes what's going to happen is we're going to have

a preliminary within 60 some days well we haven't gotten that far yet right right let's just say we do 60 days let's say that that recalled mayor is permitted to run in the renew election why wouldn't that recalled mayor can isn't it better to have the recalled mayor continue to serve pending the new election rather than a vacancy politically the city president the city council president built in is a

temporary absence the president's fills in then they have the regular election and the people speak to it uh recall election in a special election yeah yeah I just and I wouldn't imagine that the recalled candidate would be allowed to be on that ballot right we're going to get them next but my motion's been made it's been seconded all in favor um we want to do a roll call vote let's

roll call Dan yes Paul yes John yes Laura yes yes yes motion passes moving on to the most exciting part of the recall 8.5 small section f recall election ballots ballots used in a recall election shall submit the following propositions in the order indicated for the recall of Josh Moe against the recall name of Officer immediately at the right of each proposition there shall be a square in

which the voter by marking an X may vote for either of them under the proposition shall appear the word candidates and the direction vote for one beneath this names of the candidates nominated as hearing provided discussion please I don't like any of it I don't either anyone know something I thought that the language just saying that was already problematic the first part right

for or again slightly call do you it the question should be just written out do you want to recall Joe Schmo from the office of Mayor do you want to yeah do you wanna receive Joe schmal in the office of the mayor yes I always thought that that language was a little bit yes for the recalls I can use the word remove exactly so I just think it should be a

question it's a private life right yeah so yeah and I think we should strike the second paragraph I don't think the candidates should be on the same ballot I think the recall my motion is we call election ballots ballots used in a recall election shall submit the following the propositions in the order indicated question number one do you want name of Officer removed from the office and the second question well do

you want to do you want so and so to remain as officer retainer remain that's my motion second any further discussion yeah oh and I want to strike the second paragraph yeah this kind of goes in the same discussion about raising the five percent to ten percent I mean what we're trying to do is make sure that this doesn't become a political tool it's a tool to remove a mirror that isn't doing their job well

so move America and signatures for right right so there's there's a number of things that at least want to discuss and you know some of these they're different and I admit they're different but one you know I think we should use the word remove not recall just yeah no I like removed um I guess if you if you make it remove I think it's more obvious but I think the presumption should be almost be to

keep the mayor so maybe the first option should be keep the second option is removed the order sometimes matters remain I want that here but here's something to think of let's say you have an election of ten thousand or ten thousand voters show up right you know what I do is try to put doubles advocate for something I understand this this hasn't happened but it could happen what if we have a recall we're only 2

000 people show up in vote you could go out tonight and get hit by a car and get killed I understand what is this what we're trying to prevent is oust in America for political reasons do we want to one of two things do we want to have a higher threshold than 50 percent for recall almost like a super majority type thing or number two do we want to consider how

many people voted in the first election so for example let's say 10 000 people voted at least do we want to say at least 5 000 people or 5001 must vote for removal because you know if you have somebody who's already taking the time out of their day in November and voted in a normal election maybe they don't want to vote a second time in July maybe they're on vacation maybe they're a Snowman

but let's make it much easier to vote now than it used to be but we want to have a different threshold for a recall election than a standard that's all I want to throw out there for those Mr Rumsey I certainly appreciate that but we there was a motion to change the percentage it didn't pass this motion is just talking about the recall ballot like what it's going to look like this is like what the

balance is talking about the ballot well the motion is just to strike the second paragraph and the and the motion is to just change the language on the ballot for the questions okay about a word he said was a legal opinion Madam chair that's his role yeah he's offering his advice on on what we should do to make changes everything about a recall is legal anything that you do wrong as a commission I'm gonna

have to defend in court for tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousand dollars for the city so what I'm suggesting to you is that we need to make sure that a recall is not an easy willy-nilly thing that anybody can do at any time because I don't feel like wasting this City's time and money defending it so if you don't want me here that's fine but every time I see something you pipe

up you put it every single time you're putting words gentlemen I appreciate that everybody has a difference of opinion but I want you to take a little deep breath and I uh um I get what you're saying um Alan um so but does that go to what the recall ballot should look like like all this one this motion is just that I get it that I hear you loud and clear and I do

appreciate that I don't think uh and but right now we're just making recommendations right we we're just you know gonna come up with a draft and we certainly have to go through that again before we submit it anyway and this isn't going to change it I mean right now we're stuck with this deficient document it's our law right now whether we like it or not and it's going to be quite a bit to change it

um but in F there's nothing even in there that says that majority right has to vote this or that so I'm suggesting I just want to change the language on the ballot I get it it would be an F whether you wanted to adopt some super majority language or something minimum threshold language so but that but then again then oh you're talking about the re so once it gets on the ballot do we want to

change the percentage of people that it takes for that to pass and that doesn't even say half doesn't say anything about it we could already vote right we could we could add another person I'm talking about the actual vote of the people we've gotten through the five percent that's right we're going to get the ballot can the I made a motion that the that the ballot looks differently

is there any more discussion about how it looks seeing none there was a motion to strike the second paragraph and change the questions can we have a roll call vote on my motion just on what's left it's just on the question does the title of the ballot remain recall election no I the one that I have to sign off it should just yeah so the motion is for f to read as

follows we call election ballot ballots used in a recall election shall submit the following propositions and I think it should say questions by the way I think it should read questions in this order one should should Joe schmoe retain the office of Mayor question number two shall Joe schmoe be removed from the office of Mayor that's my motion second it's not the Joe shmos bar just the

officer please don't put Joe Schmo because I can I'm going to get an email all right roll call Jan yes Paul yes John yes Laura yes Marina yes Tracy yes motion passes now I do think we should put something in there now I actually missed a good challenge before we get to G do we do we put I think it should be something along the lines wait a minute what's this what's the

difference between a majority super Johnny I'm sorry would be 60 to be recalled 65. it's like an impeachment did your motion did you say we're striking that second paragraph So no candidates none of that's on there Strike It Off well and it's going to say it's going to say shall the office holder retain the office or shall the office hold to be removed or however Lane would you want to do it so did everybody

understands to not have the candidates on the same ballot yes that's the second portion of it so now there's we're striking that yeah we're striking that hole immediately the whole thing there's discussion about when the election takes place should there be a certain amount of people that vote to remove the mayor or or whatever office holder now but what what say it again a super majority is 60 more than 50 because

560 I mean impeachment is two-thirds of the Senate that's right the majority is a simple majority I think as much as seven votes yeah no as much as I don't like recalls I think this is not a group of senators voting it's the public right and I think to ask them to do more than 50 is asking a lot I mean if it gets that far it should be 50.1 well and it also will

depend on if we use the lever of the additional signatures yeah so to turn you around to um point we trying to make this a little bit more difficult right and so by saying you need 10 and then on top of that to say you need a super majority yeah it seems like one or the other yeah rather than both there could be a balanced figure one yeah are you saying a 51.50 of the 50 000

voters oh fifty percent of the 30 okay of whoever votes okay so first um okay so 30 of the people come in to vote well if ten thousand people vote you need five thousand one one okay yeah I I think that's yeah I mean I don't think you want to change this election as much as I don't like it right I don't think you want to change it but where all of a sudden people voting

67 or 60. I agree with Tracy there just seems ten percent if you're if you're raising the the ante into the game right then also changing you're also changing the rules of the game as well now you're making it almost impossible for somebody to be recalled but we don't we kept it at five percent it was voted down but it's going to be three three I'm gonna have to go to my Robert's Rules of water foreign

do you know of any elections where more than 50 percent have ever been allowed for a general public I know it all the time for our boards and councils yeah things like that I don't think General Public person where there's a requirement of more than 50 percent no I haven't looked into it but I mean that was kind of as I said spitball a little bit but the idea of you know recalls shouldn't be a

second shot the Apple um no do you want to have and I I think well I was surprised I'll speak for myself I was surprised at the turnout for a unscheduled recall well yeah not a normal election pretty impressive but it's hot so what I was trying to play Devil's Advocate with in my head was well you know 10 000 people show up for a so-called regular election and only 3 000 show up for a recall

um you know all right we're really just doing the bidding of the vocal minority as opposed to the the democracy working at a general election so I was trying to figure out okay so do we have to make sure that there's a minimum of half the people who voted in the original election so I said just thinking it through just transfer out so for example ten thousand people show up to meet at least five thousand people

vote for a recall

right well I said two things I said you know do you want to consider having a minimum have to show up based upon who show up the first election or two do you want to have something more than a simple majority as I said I didn't even take a position I just wanted this Council to consider these ideas um it is ten of seven and I feel like um

because that's kind of a uh I I I I think that we should um table this to the next meeting because the next G is gonna is gonna cause some discussion and this discussion about how much of a majority what is it so what would the language be well I didn't suggest any language but does anybody say yes you can pick a percentage higher than 50 potentially I agree with uh Mr Machado I mean this is

something I probably should look into a little more legally before we ever adopted it but if it's something this board would be considering I could easily do the research if it's something research is that if we can get if we if a super majority or a simple way something more than a simple majority can be required on recall elections only or recalls it's really not election it's a recall it's a recall it's a big deal

I think if you want them to toughen the recall process bump it up on the front end yeah on the signature part the number of centimeters because I understand and that's it that's a significant concern that hasn't happened it's always a higher amount which surprises me according to the numbers that that you provided but not me I I'm also that that could very well right that would concern me if somebody got

recalled on a very small percentage of the number of Voters who showed up for the original election right here well I want to research I can you res do you think you could do a little bit of research on that about if we can apply so the question is can we apply a uh um can we apply that to the special to the recall election is it legal or constitutional I don't

know but I just my concern is that the public perception of it it's this looks like out of all elections and I don't condone recalls with the two-year term I think it's really difficult but well um but I think if you could now go into the public and saying 60 or 67 um it's just yeah like it just looks almost like that Electoral College kind of thing it would be unlikely for you to get 5500

signatures and only have 3 000 people show up to this yeah it's unlikely but it could happen if you're gonna if you're going to keep with the five percent and then you end up with three that you could end up with three thousand that would be problematic so bumping it up on the front end protects or bumping it up to a percentage majority one or the other you'll research that Alan I can look

into it for him and it's ten of seven I don't want to get to G with 10 minutes left because that's an important that's an important provision thank you before we adjourn because I go back to seven two small weather B for one second absolutely is that the one about the the clerk getting the no and miss the Lions can correct me if I'm wrong or reading it wrong can you read it again

I'm looking at violent position of candidates yes for electives okay yep currently with this Charter we have a lottery I want a motion to eliminate the lottery and have it revert back position that it was before well one can we can we table that to the next meeting Dan that's way too much to do in the next 10 minutes that's fine you don't mind so I I just want to ask again

so you want to so you're referencing seven two two seven two B I'll put it on the agenda for the next year I'm happy to come back to talk about that it reverts back to mgl which we followed up until 2018. and what's mgl yeah alphabetical in the premium it was alphabetical for the preliminary first for the general but I'm happy to grab the statue Mr lions and I'll have specimen balance and records for you

that'd be nice so Mr Lyons is going to send um some documents to us I'll have them attached to the next agenda that's fine the next meeting is May

thank you foreign