5.1.2023 Special City Charter Commission

May 1st 2023 special Charter review committee meeting we're in the atrium at one government center in Fall River Massachusetts and before we start the the open meeting law pursuant to the open meeting law any person may make an audio or video recording of this public meeting or may transmit the meeting through any media attendees are therefore advised that such recordings or Transmissions are

being made whether perceived or unperceived by those present and are deemed acknowledged and permissible and we can start with the Pledge of Allegiance right over there I pledge allegiance to the flag United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all thank you and can we have attendance police starting down to my right Dan

Tim Campos John Mitchell Rena Brown Kathy namkovich Tracy Almeida in absent tonight are Laura Washington Mimi laravee and Alan Rumsey all with previously scheduled um uh business and they could not make it they send their regrets and if we could have the minutes from April 24th please 2023.

second with the amendment that we had um as that president Mr Campos there's a motion to accept the minutes with the amendment that Tim Campos to be added to the members absent to it all in favor okay any opposed motion passes before we get started uh just for the record and for individuals watching this on the city of Fall River website if you click on boards in commissions it will give you a drop down screen and

then if you click on special Charter Review Committee you'll be able to find agendas minutes and any other documents that we use when we discuss if you're a member of the public and want to send documents to us our emails and the members are listed on that website as well you can send them to us and if you send them to us it has to be a couple days in advance so we can

provide them to the public as well and with that we will open up the meeting for public comment s

the other day I was listening to a radio station which I spoke at the first chapter first recall candidates running for that position would have been reported has to be must be on a certain battle and a separate day now why do I say this let's say like the last election I think it's defeated the name of the mechanics are the same value each let's say a person who like the last time the name of

course he does not get the virginity vote most of what happens then now if I was a candidate and it would go to the foreign election and they said well no no no because the recall failed you look your thing up I would say they're sitting as a Norm the will of the people and everybody has heard of this for years Stone Collection I'm sorry to say this this Charter we have here what I remember

I would also uh I heard I'm ready to go something that frightened me that they didn't know where though from here I thought we would have another committee to um have another Channel by the public but I was wrong at that uh my suggestion is this since I spent time in the service and all the places they always say make three copies one for file one for your son and one to get

close and a typical example of things get from law school misplaced just look at the federal level president of the United States not the one we think of trump Biden had records for 10 years 10 years can you imagine that and the vice president had it for a short time my market to cook like this how many records are out there the people who should not have them have them and how come we don't know

who has like I said when I was in the service I was signed my first notary station has facial security every time I got a weapon I had to sign up and when my shift was over I had a signed up weapon back here to me my suggestion if not three copies of four one for you the president of this the junior president and one to get lost thank you very much

for listening to me thank you Mr alfaros and thank you for your service some public comment

can I get your address please for sure 127 Canyon Street okay uh

some of the discussions I heard some things on our radio important but this and I heard somebody say that they're worried about increasing the amount of signatures to take to initiate a recall I have a problem obviously that threshold is not a high threshold when you look at a 20-day a 20-day window and people like I recall you know I mean obviously the secondary call was about Jason Correa I know that

people were engaged they were running up to people to get signatures I had regular working people in my recall that have to take time off from the work stand in parking lots of stopping shots in every way to get signatures and it was a real it was a Herculean effort on airport it's difficult and on a radio out here something kind of being a cap having a Cavalier addict in the same thing oh you know frivolous

recalls some of you know that I've been doing this a long time and

reality is to there's only been two recalls in my recollection they're not something that's done frivolously and if somebody does it further so you will find out very quickly that they're not going to be able to do it the other problem I've had this is when you raise the threshold you basically suppressing the voice of the people this country was established because the people run the government

I mean I know people here are constitutional Warriors but I got a couple things from my Constitution would you predated the regular one we all know what article 4 says Paul would originally inherent and constantly derived from the people which is fundamentally what's it what's in the Declaration of Independence Horrible's life it says clearly all power residing originally the people and being derived

from them several magistrates and officers of government vested with authority what the legislative executive and judicial are there substitutes in ages that are all times answerable to them people in this city should be able to take and get a recall if they're not satisfied with the government I have problems with the elevation in the signature story I think anybody in the United States that wants a run for

office should be because the fact is I've heard the first one and I've heard things people being actually being they're discriminating against the average person is saying you're not a valid candidate if you can't get 150 signatures why does why you invalid maybe you got to work two jobs maybe you have to maybe you don't have the time to go off 100 that doesn't mean you want to have a good idea even if you

don't get elected people can bring up ideas mostly what they know who hate them is and is third experience thesis antithesis incentives the way we move forward is by having different opinions and coming up with the synthesis in our own Declaration of Independence clearly speaks to secure these rights government I'm reading it I can go I can paraphrase it pretty well but since I'm talking to a

couple of constitutional Awards and I want to kind of candle right okay governments are instituted among men they're writing it just follows from the consent and government that wherever any form of government becomes destructive in each sense is the right of the people to alter Revolution it's an Institute new government language foundation in such principles and organizations in such form as to

them shall be most likely to affect their safety happens without without a manageable recall and I I will say it's a whole problem I'm going to go back and give a little bit more context as far as I'm concerned China you guys are looking at is legal aid because Mr robolado fire who filed a minority opinion on a child when we opposed it remembers the ballot question said we were going to keep our original tweaking

and then I believe the correct me if I'm wrong Mr robalot when when that elected committee got started they said it's going to be 2 2 difficult or too expensive or too hard not too long to so they threw the entire old shot into the barrel which I encourage stay official to the set was a very good fundamental Shopper you need it updated so what we quoted on is not

what we've got this child is a disaster and the two things idea for is should not should not raise it for five percent virus an individual segue into my second part but starts a person who is eliminated in the first half of the ballot will give you legal legal symptoms something to think about it can be my rationality exactly that is his election if they if they're going to vote him up or down the people

of this the people of this of the who vote decide his fate to bring him down to the second half of the ballot how does that make any sense any any normal person you you are you are thrown out of office by the majority of the people who vote and then you can be re-elected by a plurality that makes no sense and the plurality isn't even a weighted vote that that makes no sense

and I don't know if it was me I would say you get knocked off you have your shot every voter weighed in you had a hundred percent of the electorate that showed up determined that they don't want him to give you a chance to get in on a plurality to be flies in the face of the Constitution so with that that's it I mean you guys have a good time with it with him I

don't want to see it I don't want to see I want to see that flight percent go up I would like to see I would like to see the individual if he's defeated not behind the second half and then if we have to go to a second ballot I've heard some suggestions about bringing the president of the city councilman I don't think that's a bad idea personally I think that it's only a bad idea if

there's more than 50 percent of his term limits I think they can be forced to have an election what I mean if it's a short term you know there's some good ideas but let's remember the voice of the people please because I think this is all about our Charter is about giving the people of Fall River a voice not protecting politicians who were elected and then the electorate wants to get them up and

I will remind you one with one little segment with one little point in our recall we recalled a mega that was in this third term his third term and was elected by 70 or nearly 70. 69 to 70 percent in the vote and one year later December 16th in this building he was recalled by seventy percent of the votes so it shows that sometimes people say you know if they don't like a man

they're going to recall pump the people have a right to speak and even if you get defeated like the second one please move it in but you have the ability to to fight to fight and that's all I'm saying is remember the two recall elections that higher turnouts and any election we've had in the past I don't know for six years we turned down nearly 17 000 people for a special election with no

other Angus to bring them in no city council race no no breaks it off on a school committee you know made our whole race just that particular issue would be brought in nearly 17 000 voters and the second one it brought in nearly fourteen thousand to me that's the essence of what this is about our Charter is a lot of people to be able to control their own government thank you for your attention thank you

any any more public comments um just on the recall so is your position that it should just be a valid for recall that said I do what I do believe that I mean I think that that dangling participle that we had created more problems and I think that's the committee said I don't want to speak for but I think everyone agrees the first election should be recall on that then the question is do you go to

the council president and just fill the vacancy do you have a primary and a final or do you just have one final and whoever gets the most votes well I think my favorite methodology is because obviously I ran a union nearly 25 years whenever we had a someone leave a position or be taken away out of the position our bylaw is clearly stated that if you know the vice president would have sent to the presidency what

would be there temporarily if more than half the term was you know less than half the term was there but if there was more than 50 percent of the term left we would have a regular election and that's the way we did we did it I think that's the that's you know Common Sense way to do this you should recall a person and that person should not be eligible to run because

the people have already said that and we basically I mean if somebody gets thrown off with nine months left enough

it just I'm very very sensitive because I know I'll hide my people work to get those signatures I know how they work and they were they were not they did not have the resources we had no money no lawyers and no anything everybody on this committee who has run for public office shares your sentiment about the signatures so I don't have any experience with that but those that need to get signatures did Express their

concern about the increased you know um difficulty in achieving that goal should that number go up so that sentiment was shared with you Mr khimara signatures in a run because they that doesn't mean they can't contribute because there's a there's there's an air sometimes of almost these people and I did this it makes some derogatory remarkably these people and not they're not worthy

of being of running for office that's not true some people some people you know have great ideas but they're unknown and maybe when you get when they show up and can't believe they don't like I said you never never studied anal cyclical theories dialogue to come up with synthesis and I think that the more people we have run the more people we have engaged in the election process and I think that's a

good thing I think you'll be happy to know though if you if you go look at the past meetings I mean we we um discussed and we discussed the recall at length we might wrap up discussion about it tonight but you know emotion was made to eliminate the candidates from the same ballot that passed unanimously it's just recommendations we're making you know that we're not changing this today but that um that

particular motion passed unanimously so the our recommendation is that those that election does not take place at the same time so that was one of the Court challenges and one of the other things that I think unanimously passed this uh Lord was that the number of signatures required be decreased a motion was made there was discussion about it and um it would have been nice uh you know

if we could change it right now but we can't but that also was part of our discussions and and that's one of the recommendations and um so you know I we don't have the authority to change it right now but I see a very bright future for fixing the problems with this ballot and your sentiments are heard I mean and the other just just to remind you that the very last portion of that recall uh

in the charter eight five small G any person who's been recalled from Office who has resigned from office while recall proceedings were pending against said office holder shall not be a point attending office within two years after such recall or such resignation we haven't discussed that yet it's still on the table here but you know the old Charter made a provision for that and again we we haven't discussed it yet

appointed right and they're in life the legal issue but I really appreciate the fact that I you know I mean look you know me if I don't like it I'll tell you but the thing is I'm liking you've got my vote with what you're talking about if you're going to make it easier for the people to have their voice first that's that's the to me the primary mover of everything

last time more people said my name wrong does anybody the last election we had a recall a former man on the radio I don't know Dan here to be saved us in my humble opinion Juanita elected he should have been swan in because it's a election not a group of people it's warning election results recall be sure to sworn in I'm sorry it's a it's a hot button topic and top on topic um

we are in front of public and could you give us yes no a lot of people come to me and you see someone who's trying to that type of background they get motivated obviously all I do is a good ideas but seeing someone who's going up there speaking to the issues the motivates me what doesn't motivate people is when running for office and I think an uncle office seems that

should be lowered where they are now but because look when you go out there you go home for office so we have to persuade anything to sign language that's not easy to show you make sure and sometimes she even try to weigh them down and walk right gotta have the you gotta have kids attractive so that is a job that's more so I think I think and again I don't think the threshold

Garner system for repulsion should be increased from five percent because people who work every day I'm the five and that's a lot of time a lot of the traffic during the day are investors a lot of traffic during the day today you have to get done with that just to give yourself an extra cushion because some United voters and because people don't know that because and and that is another job for himself

um I think that the public should feel good knowing they want to initiate their rights to move some and if they recall election does come out I don't think it should be anything it's one shot one bite of yeah one election the other people want whatever you vote for you but I think you know if we're going to increase voter uh candidates he was going through office increasing the requirement and not

increasing the threshold because we can't make it hard with people to run for office and we can't make your opportunity to change the government that they decide and I think that should be Paramount over anything also I just want to say it's another recommendation we should change to move our election cycle that coincides with the midterm election cycle you go to event to molecular new

Congress and to win those electron presence because putting in those two election Cycles in my opinion increase voter turnout because already the people discussing politics National level and I think I'll also probably will save the city funding so and I think for the incumbents it will mean that it will have to work harder to gain the majority votes because the more people that will more important

so I think that should also take place with the election centers and lastly as far as you sit out for two terms because if you do it that way the people will know every four years or so newcomers come in and you'll be 34 years so I think that if the if it doesn't increase in two and four it says two uh every four years the public can't Bank on new people

being in that room making decisions as a matter of fact their way of life and and I think do it that way will just be more confidence again to too much so I think doing those people don't recognition you know I just I think people get turned off when they see in comments all the time and they just say well why am I even for office because so I think that's a good time I know

this is a person even task for myself but I think we should do what's right and also not hindering the people in all the people thank you thank you Mr best question right oh absolutely thank you for your foreign

and I think a lot of what problems that you and some of the comments that you rightly bring up that will make I came from the consultant the consultant really changed the entire process of the first Charter Commission once he was hired it was a game changer he gave us all the boiler Point language that you see in this chapter we just played a game of war West uh fill in the

blanks there was some additions that a committee members made we met between uh 35 and 37 times over a two-year period most people know that I think this chatter is an absolute disaster it's not worth a roll of Shaman of okay I I think in a lot of ways it is illegal first mistakes that uh commissioned me was hiring the consultant and it's you're absolutely correct if you look at all of the all of

the preliminary discussion and all of the preliminary media reports about once the signatures were obtained to get a shot of commission elected uh that all changed once the consultant came in Mr myoza why why do you preferred as the father of the job and the first chairman okay a chairman of the last committee said numerous times publicly we can't put too much on the ballot it'll never pass then he and

seven of my other colleagues miraculously decided to bring in three genius Consultants Ed mcgorry uh Marilyn Contreras it's time to establishing three of them uh got the majority of the commission uh to support basically a lot of the boy will play Language by the way why do we set up the mentor was taken out of the process because of the insult he flatly refused to sit at meetings with uh where

public input took place uh so I'm very interested in your position uh regarding the recall that you ran the only successful recall in the state of Massachusetts and I look forward to seeing what we do thank you very much Adam thank you Mr robillard filing a minority opinion on the last shot you know my position on Consultants I sometimes have their place but the reality is when we're dealing with all River

I sympathize with you you guys that have to deal with this pile of rubble that was left for us to fight by these people because conscionable gun because as I said that's not what I voted for I voted for a change in the child based on the language that said we were going to take our its weekend and then when I I still think if I hit them if I ever hit the Megabucks it'll

probably said I'm in a lot of law students to file this is this would would have been one of the five

and and directly directly affects us and I thank you as I said for being the lone voice on the original shot oh it was very easy because because I questioned Mr McGoldrick at his interview on December 2nd 2015 and 90 was hired by an eight for one vote and I asked them what part if any of the original China then when we're going to use in the process uh in

developing what now turns out to be this disaster and he said no and that for me was a game changer we should never hire the biggest mistake that First China commission made along with that putting queer recall language in this job thank you very much Madam chair thank you Mr Camara thank you to Awful testified tonight and I yield thank you any more public comment seeing none moving on

um I'd like a vote to table number six please please Kathy makes a motion table number six second Tracy seconds all in favor skipping six anybody opposed motion passes will Table Six and uh starting with discussion and review of the following Charter sections Mr Lyons has come down again to Grace Charter Review Committee with his presence answer some questions um and uh there were a couple questions um

uh one I wanted to start on 310 which is the recall provision is there I will know 310 is the vacancy there was discussion that if there's if a person is recalled or vacates the office and there was some discussion that the recall provision will stop there it'll refer you back to 310 which is vacancy in the office of the mayor and in reading that it calls for a preliminary

and then a regular is there enough time to have a preliminate is there enough time here's my question get nomination papers signed have a preliminary in an election how do you within 90 days because that's what 310 says it says 310 vacancy in the office of the mayor whenever a vacancy occurs in the office of the mayor by death removal resignation or any other reason during the first 18 months of the terms which

the mayor was elected the city council shall call a special election to be held within 90 days following the date the vacancy is created I'm only reading a portion of that because the question is really geared about that is 90 days long enough to nomination papers prelim and the special

welcome back

or I want to say the beginning of October end of November end of September I believe so I think it's definitely manageable within the treatment and so is there a separate set of you know ordinances bylaws on the special election and timing like does your office say okay everybody got 20 days to get signatures because we're having the prelim but there is an mgl that addresses special elections as versus regulations

so but there's another mgl for special alrighty and we know which chapter comes selection was uh mgl chapter 54 is the uh okay all right so um thank you um right and I'll make a suggestion that you know maybe the the whole thing can be put on the website so they can link it and just you know um one and again we'll make a reference to the statute that applies right

and then so 7-1 then I want to just I didn't know about the time frame so seven one is about preliminary elections seven one a privilege you want me to spell that for you Mr Clark a preliminary election to nominate candidates for mayor city council and school committee shall be held on the third Tuesday in September in each odd numbered year in which the candidates are to be elected but the city clerk May

with the approval of the city council reschedule the preliminary election to the second or fourth Tuesday in September to avoid any conflict with any civil or religious holiday whenever a special election to fill a vacancy is to be held a preliminary election shall be conducted if necessary 28 days before the date established for the special election is that 28-day time frame doable okay

could you explain to us why well quite honestly I mean the minimum notifications an election

is the minimum statutory language that I could find interesting 28 days that'd be virtually impossible to put the ballots up a bit because I have three bids per the procurement laws to submit to the purchasing agent print forty five thousand general election ballots and then 10 or more thousand vote by mail ballots and combine that with the new votes Act of 2022 it'd be impossible to have it all done within a 2018

combined with the number of people who want to go by no excuse vote by mail for that particular election so what what's your recommendation for this says 28 days what would be the leanest number that would be manageable manageable I would have to say at least start to finish all for the special election ballots designed the ballot for free to habits that you've been to Japan uh make sure

that you have the absentee ballots into mind before election um I think 45 days is much more manageable so there's a vacancy the city council on September 1st says you've got to have a special election just hypothetically speaking yes but you think 30 45 days I think 45 days gives us something where I can make sure things are done you know properly without hopefully no error but 2018 is this

really under the gun to have a special preliminary election a range of natural period of time back to last year when you possibly were looking at and Diving um another time in high school debt overrides um that was the concern no matter what time frame would it be so because of adopt or the election it turned out it would have been 35 days but I was really it was really 45 days with

become such just like in my office the time necessary to go from start to finish from the moment the um ready to go formatted for election day the absentee ballots ready with the GT formation that's a big undertaking for which I mean so if you get 45 days for that would you still be able to have your special election within the 90 days see I I here's the issue 310 vacancy in the office of Mayor

Provisions as within 90 days you could have that election and um 7-1 says all right prelim and special and we certainly don't want them to be in conflict with each other so so if 7-1 was changed to 45 days would we still be able to comply with leaving the language in 310 the same am I making sense

special preliminary Services I think that's doable okay with the two elections separate from the first so if 7-1 preliminary elections if the language was changed um to this whenever a special election to fill a vacancy is held a prelimit election shall be conducted if necessary 28 days before the date established 45 would be better would that infringe upon the time that they can get nomination papers in if not

that calendar would be a lot of useful election year which I believe probably would most likely be somewhere around 10 in 2018. okay all right 7 45

vacant the president of the city council moves in to that role and so at that time during this election cycle the special election the preliminary special and the final um that 90-day period the president of the city council is sitting mayor is that correct according to 310.

so it's not necessarily rudderless at that point there's a person that's sort of moving things through out right whether it's recall or something else so the vacancy is established and we have determined I believe that recall is vacancy where the language I think was a little muddied before we're not calling that recall of vacancy and acting in accordance with the rest of the charter

around a vacancy is that correct okay thank you for the clarification right but for Cliff but it's then the preliminary election and then the final special election right but the vacancy provision would be provoked by the recall and in the in the current Charter that's not the case there's some special conditions by which for for which happens under a recall situation only when the officers vacant

or vacated in a different way like injury or death or um you know by by resignation does the vacancy provision hold right now but now after we've voted on this now vacancy can also be deemed sort of in process or when there's a recall election and the sitting mayor is recalled so it's now a vacancy or any other reason but we um right I think we discussed if the recall is successful that's a

vacancy we jet back to 310. we noticed that that language that you just said removed was at odds with another place in the charter which laid out special Provisions right um another question was uh on 7.4 because I I just want to ask you the questions and we're going to move back to discuss it and 7-4 ballot position regular city election the order in which names of candidates for each office appear on the

ballot shall be determined by a drawing by a lot conducted by the city clerk not later than seven days after the certification of the preliminary election results in the event there is no preliminary election in advance of a special election the drawing shall be conducted on the sixth Tuesday prior to the city election the drawing shall be open to the public and there was some discussion about

reverting back to how it used to be with incumbents in alphabetical order and then um you know new candidates in alphabetical order I think you said that there was a Mass General law Massachusetts state elections do it alphabetically

and do you have the mgl for that one is it and we did used to do it four of it used to do it that way Hopkins Hill um okay so that was another one of those Charter changes I I think it's fine uh I'd like the move that we eliminate the lottery procedures right and revert back to what it was prior to the adoption of this job I said any further discussion Tracy I'm sorry

I'm having a difficult time hearing yes second I believe that's a waste of time is holding a special Lottery on special days it's international law state of Massachusetts does patio procedures that should be for the number is that just for my colleague's qualification I can tell you what the uh the allowance of thought was the cryogenic commission they wanted to have everybody have a chance to be

listed in different ways on the Batman period that was it is there any further discussion a motion has been made to strike all the language in 7-4 and fashion language similar to mgl 54 section 42. if that's if I could just yeah I all I'm looking to do whatever language achieves it all I'm working to do the lottery and go back to the procedures of the front of them shot up before the adoption of the

current chair any further discussion so Ryan that'll be in the primary alphabetical final alphabetical by well it's interesting incumbent I looked at some of our previous ballot points of preliminary elections as well as the general elections in the preliminary have a candidates listed alphabetically regardless of which competency yeah the general law language is how just have income is first so even in the

primary yeah because I think Fall River always did it immediately and I played a assessment balance on the back of human Emperor acute different municipations or suggesting consistency in the way the way of this candidate about the voters can expose to that change to the public that's for sure to go from alphabetically to looking for Washington hospitality motion slightly to include the primary

elections and then we need to say what language do I want to yeah you can you guys will be able to clean that up so the so Dan just to be clear for the record the motion is on 7.4 ballot position regular city election that we strike the lottery language in that section and we revert that either back well see we don't we can't say back to where it was

because we we really don't know but we could if if we can fashion it compliance with with Mass General law 54 section 42 we can fix the light the the specific language later but that's the one that references alphabetical that's fine okay and that motion's been seconded all in favor any oppositions to that motion okay so motion passes 7.4 7-4 ballot position regular city election language has changed according

to the motion sure um there's a lot of talk about the Cry of China yes yes I could not find that on well let me tell you perhaps people it would get a copy I will say this I asked the city before we started can I have a copy of the Old Charter and I don't know what they sent me I it doesn't I don't know what they said they sent me something so I will

certainly make what they sent me available but at one time there was a it was on the website during the during the time of the Third there it is now who knows I am I I was scanning copy what the city clerk's office said me when I made a request for the previous Charter I will send it out all that scanned we are working with the I.T Department to have links to Old Charter this Charter right

so but I will I will make copies of this and make them available it'd be and the reason I say that is it's time there's no title on this and all it says is part one chartered related laws article one incorporation article two the charter okay so I have it here that's it okay so I will make the Old Charter available to everybody I'll have it put on the website I will

let me make myself an Old Charter for everyone and it I can tell you that it is very difficult to follow um but can I ask a question yes um so before the devotion in seven four title staying but it's the all the languages is changing the title stays though well does it need to well it does because ballot positioning is important during the election well no power position but regular city election is All City

of wrecked correct so oh so put City elections strike the regular yeah yeah you guys Yeah clean that up all right and then last but not least Mr lion so we can get you to move on um 8-2 C in 8-2 is City initiative measures but I'm only going to refer to the small C I'll read it into the record again for the record eight section 8-2 of the charter is the city initiative measures

small C submission to the city clerk if the city determined attorney determines that the petition is in proper form the city clerk shall provide blank forms for the use of subsequent ciders and shall print at the top of each blank form a fair concise summary of the proposed measure as determined by the City attorney together with the names and addresses of the petitioners committee the city clerk shall notify the

petitioner's committee that the blank forms are issued within 120 days following the date of the notice the petition shall be returned and filed with the city clerk signed by at least 10 percent of the total number of Voters as of the date of the most regular city election signatures to an initiative petition need not all be on single paper but all papers pertaining to any single measure

shall be fastened together and filed as a single instrument with the endorsement on it of the name and addresses of the person's designated as filing the papers with each signature on the petition there will also appear the street and number of the residents of each cider within 10 days following the filing of the petition the board of election Commissioners shall ascertain the number

of Voters that sign the petition and the percentage that number is of the total number of Voters as of the date of the most recent regular city election the board of election Commissioners shall attach to the petition's certificate showing the results of its examination and shall return the petition to the city clerk or vice chair of the school committee depending on how the petition is addressed a copy of the

board of election commissioner's certificate shall also be mailed to members of the petitioners committee my question was is 10 days enough to certify 10 of the total number of Voters of the city the last election what was it 35 that we have last selection we had seventy thousand children okay ten percent so to sort of so if you get three or four thousand it was ten days enough okay yes I moved that we

should I do you think I should I should go through and read the whole um 8.2 is citizen initiative right now I remember this as if it was yes

directly suggested by the three Consultants if you could would you mind just explaining you know a little bit of what it is so the rest of the board members can the Old Charter had how much do you remember I don't believe there was that that was this type of initiative process from the old child we could be wrong about that I believe that was article 8 is all about citizens citizen initiatives

um article 8 of the charter is about citizen participation mechanisms is the language of this particular article in section 8.1 is a free petition A2 citizen initiative members and 8-2 has subsection A B C D E F G H and I and I'm with you I've had him come down because before I thought I would really put it on the agenda to discuss I I had that question about the Ted days I

didn't want to drag him down here again if if we could because it's large and new and everybody doesn't have the old chartered would you mind if we put that on the next agenda for next week there was nothing in the old job so there was no mechanism for a citizen measures not like this okay as high are we new water that was known recall provision in the last Jada and I don't believe that with

anything uh that's commonly in the article eight in the form of China okay so I I'm going to um I need a motion to table eight uh article eight till the next week I know you have emotion on the table but uh you think you can um withdraw until next week I mean I'm going to make the same motion just to reduce the percentage okay well the ten for five that's all I'm walking into

the motion the table leads in between seconds all in favor all right I'm gonna put eight I'm gonna put the whole article eight um not the whole article eight but our article eight um eight one eight two eight three and eight four on next week's agenda because it's really big we did eight five because that's about the recall well speaking of Vape five on the moving on Mr Lyons does anybody else have any

questions for Mr Lyons Mr Lyons thank you so much for coming we're not chewing you out the door but if you've got stuff to do I think um we're just finished with you thank you so um referring everybody to section 85 the recall the one part we did not discuss yet is G it's on the agenda office holder recalled and it the this is the language any person who has been recalled from an office

or who has resigned from office while recall proceedings were pending against said office holder shall not be appointed to any office within two years after such retail or such resignation we did um yeah we did we did we didn't look we didn't lower the numbers we took the names off the ballot and that was everything that this is the last thing I don't you remember about the recall

yeah we did we did eight five we did a we did B uh remember yeah we did and we was here we did see we did d i I know Mr Machado had a proposal that was tabled to remember what happened yeah can I can I just ask Mr Lyons question before he leaves um we'll find some cases on um that were solved and all of them made reference to read um

is there are you familiar with their specific language that the uses the term recovers because the case because we talked about changing the recall ballots to to move the term recall I think it's possible to put removal and parenthesis after they call somebody

except for the definition because all of the case law that I found the drug and inferred the discussion from Mr Alliance I think the citizens of Fall River know what is recall right yeah and we did go to court one of those cases might have been obvious anyone else um I have another recommendation but is it more appropriate to life for the children to come back to before the recommendations to the board

yeah as a appropriate yeah but she asked me in the meantime if we can go I guess to 9-1 Charlie changes if are we all done with a5g oh we're going to come but I guess we're going to discuss that right there if it's legal to ban people for two years from appointment is voted yeah we had to address that well

yeah but it's just appointed right right imagine the language and setting a point to this hold then they can neither run nor be appointment because this just covers to me acquainted you could run and hold yeah I'm just not sure if you can stop anyone from running for an election after that first recall that made me laugh yeah you know the same ethics Law requires yeah for one yeah yeah you can't you

can't take a position for a year so I don't know why I think darkness you guys are the lawyers I don't know but it just seems kind of like it's kind of like it's almost a conflict there is precedent that you can do that because it's taken yeah prohibits you from taking

I'm pretty sure Dartmouth is Charter just has language that if you are recalled that you cannot be on that that that that special election ballot that's it well I think you have more leeway with us pointed than you do elected I don't think it can keep people off balance performance but so office holder recalled they shouldn't be on the special election ballot immediately no we're going to pass that separately

right that's going to be on them but I'm sure about the election so should it be appointed shall not be traces suggested shall not hold office which would include election within one year yeah that also is also yeah they wouldn't be able to do it yeah and in the definition section we could um actually really you know if we needed to Define it over there yeah like hold office means appointed or elected right

right because a lot of these when there's a question you go to the definitions right is different yeah and that was my problem with that too is that it said is there a motion yes all right discussing changing appointed to hold I don't know was there emotion on the table

and then changing the second what is it yeah say your whole motion again Tracy please

Section 8 5 G to any person who has been recalled from office or who has resigned from office while we call proceedings were pending against that office holder shall not hold rather than appointed any office within one year after such recall or such resignation shall not hold any city right any City any and you seconded it yes seconded it by John any further discussion and that was one year you said yes okay

any further discussion all righty all in favor anybody oppose okay motion passes yes sir I am

called for that we for example Mr Machado had an entire proposal that was table we tabled it because three members were absent we did not talk about the percentage of signatures we did we had a vote it was a tie though again and I thought somebody was going to bring it up again but we did we talked about the one we were waiting on was 85g which we just but chair Brown suggested that the

remaining sections shall be tabled to allow for enough time for discussion but everything else looked oh we did not decide how the vacancy would be filled correct correct I thought we voted on referring when it's deemed vacant you refer to 310. I thought that was part of one of the Motions but I could be wrong on AP I have a note in on on the charter that says the office is vacant after the

election so after it was certified that was the motion that passed that the office was deemed vacant after the recall election results were certified went back to go to the vacancy language to revisit that to make sure it was in line with that that determination so if a marriage recalls there's going to be no bottom half of the ballot correct correct yes it's gone the city council president steps in steps in

for what period of time whatever 310 says 310 says if it's within 150 days of uh the regular election is coming within 150 days let me just I should have guessed yeah he stays so the language in 310 vacancy in the office whenever a vacancy occurs in the office of Mayor by death removal resignation or any other reason during the first 18 months of the term for which the mayor was elected city council

shall call a special election to be held within 90 days file on the date the vacancy is created hang on where am I I just lost wait a minute is created for the remainder wait so the city council shall call a special election to be held within 90 days found the date the vacancy is created to fill the vacancy for the remainder of the unexpired term between the date of the Declaration of

the vacancy and the certification of the results of the special the vacancy in the office of Mayor shall be filled as provided in three eight which is titled temporary absence of the mayor the succession portion if the council president is unable or unwilling and we struck that language right to serve the provisions of section 38c shall apply the candidate elected as mayor in such special elections shall be

sworn to office immediately upon certification of the special election however it goes on to say if a regular city election is to be held within 150 days after the vacancy is created a special election need not be held in the position will be filled by a vote at the regular city election and the candidate elected as mayor shall be sworn to office I remember discussing these Provisions

when we first started I don't remember having this discussion and taking votes specifically as it relates to the recall I I oh that 310 applies maybe we didn't I don't I don't know if a motion was made I thought it was on the tail end of one of the other motions I could be you might be right there I know I know Mr Machado had a uh and table because it was getting quite close

to seven o'clock is for uh what was The Proposal do you know no we had taken a vote on the um raising the signatures required from five percent to ten percent uh that was a tie um and we were waiting yeah and I made an amended motion which was not seconded so what remains is that the number of votes the number of signatures necessary for a recall remain at five percent

so 310 was never a motion was not made to deem the office vacant after a recall and revert to 3 8 and 310.

at the last meeting as to how to fulfilled yeah Mr Dennis's um referred back to three eight and three ten actually I'll I'll get it I don't think I so um I thought we hadn't decided whether we were going to go with we have vacancy in the council president fills that or whether we were going to have a primary and a fight because that was that language doesn't really address it it just says an

election within 90 days it doesn't say whether it has to be a primary and a final that's why I asked Mr Camaro what he thought about it right so going back to eight five hang on I thought we just had to decide how we're going to fill it right right this that was discussion about having a council president step in well that was also from what I perceived in general discussion about having a special election

with a preliminary and a general yeah but I don't recall any formal motions or votes being taken at either of those all right is there a motion on the table to fill the vacancy after a recall motion allow the city president and fill the vacancy after a recall however if there is more than okay uh if there is more than one year in the term remaining that we have a special election second

can we discuss the term the amount of time remaining in the term well I'm just slightly concerned about having a city council president appointed as mayor for a full year in the instance of a video well that's half the term is that what general is not General law provides for and seems inconsistent with uh president what happens well 310 addresses it by saying five months right so I don't want to be seems like

yeah it's longer than should it be consistent with other all their Court points in the charter plus you could have an election for council president in between right I think you know either elected annually so but if the office is vacant why why aren't we having the I mean you know my position is it's a vacancy and it's a vacancy you can call it either by removal or any other reason

why the recall would be any different is specifically by citizens that's why it's different it's just a vacancy it's filling the vacancies the process of removal the feeling of the vacancy is what we're discussing here so I don't I don't see why we would appoint a city council president for an entire year well I'll tell you why because there was language and I don't remember exactly what the language is

in the form of China but there's language in the Java that says if there is a certain amount of time remaining in the tournament maybe their Mitchell can help me if there's a certain amount of time remaining in the term you have to have a special election if if it's less than whatever that time frame is and I don't recall what it is but I know there's a time frame

if it's less than that then the city council president still alive that remainder of the terms I thought it was five months 150 days it doesn't 310 they'll cover 150 days I got all of six months so but I thought I just saw they held the primary in April in the uh final nine weeks later remember those days 310 says whenever a vacancy occurs during the first 18 months then a special election is held within 90

days there it is 18 months but then if a vacancy occurs after the 18th president the vacancy and that shall be filled as provided in Section 3 8. so that's June it's six months yeah it's June should I identify a period of six months to be consistent with that in section 310.

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in June so what are we so I still don't know what anybody's talking about I I just thought that we reverted to if it's a vacancy however we got there it's a vacancy I just thought it triggered three eight and three ten because I'm going to tell you now I see a challenge that's all if our Charter says hey there's a vacancy whether it's death removal I quit you quit you're fired

why the recall because we've just made the recall just its own election right and if that recall succeeds that that office is vacant city councilor or mayor our Charter already tells us what to do it doesn't tell us just because it's vacant because of a recall you got to do it differently it says you guys get a vacancy here's how we want you to do it I just have a problem with deviating and separating a

recall removal vacancy from any other vacancy I I think the procedure needs to be uniform I see a challenge you recall somebody and I'm telling you you know then you make recall special elections different than the other vacancy special elections told me all we're talking about right now madam there is at the time of the recall if there is X number of time remaining in the term then there has to be a special election

well we're not we're not different differentiating anything I thought you were to make it crystal clear we could refer back to section 3 8 and say and three tech and and say exactly what it is if and repeat it you just copy paste the language right so it as consistent with 3A just re so it's very clear that we're talking about it's the same across the board to make it crystal

crystal clear but in no way should we deviate how we handle or should we recommend how we deviate we're not the meaning all we're saying is if if there's a resignation in the it says the vacancies in the mayor's office and that vacancy occurs within X number of times whatever it is in the last job I believe I believe Mrs bankovich just pointed out it was 18 months if it's 18 months or

less you don't need a special election if it's more than 8 months you need a special election right right so that the council president just doesn't serve a whole two-year term so to speak that's what that is doing that's what the 310 and 3 8 do Dan three eight and three ten say the city council president cannot be mayor forever it says Within These Times he can stay if this time comes up we're

having a special election and it's also making Provisions it it in 3 8 and 310 lay out the time period And I don't see that either three eight or three ten leaving the the president or anybody else in that position forever it calls for time frames in there I'm I'm still confused all I'm saying is I want I don't think I want the time but this time frame in three eight and three ten yeah

that's what I think doesn't say preliminary I make a motion those Provisions apply there was already a motion made no but you made a moment you made the motion but I wasn't sure and then uh yeah the six months I think right because the I just want three three so how we get there so deanne's motion doesn't refer to three eight and three ten and that was seconded by you for the one year yeah

yeah and but I think Paul's gonna make a motion just to refer to three eight and three ten okay yeah can we what can we vote on one motion at a time yeah but I'm I'm trying to just make the record clear what motions have been thrown out here your motion does not refer to 3 8 and 310 it has its own language with a one-year time limit correct okay there's a motion on the table

seconded by John Mitchell any further discussion the motion does not refer to 3 8 and 310 the motion puts a one year limit on the city council president all in favor of that motion roll call Dan yes Paul yes Tim yes I'll keep going You're Gonna Keep John what'd you say I'm not now I think it should be six months consistent with the limit I think it's three eight and three

ten I do too is that like in no all right maybe I no um Dan's Mo that's why I specifically said Dan's motion is not to refer to 3 8 and 310 and fill in the vacancy he wants a different time limit right the time limit would be if December of the odd year if there was a recall before the December 31st of the evening year then the council president

there would be an election if it was after that time going into the next election it would be um excuse me it's the reverse right so and that if you went past January 1st of the election year it would then be the council president the only difference between what Dan's proposing and what's in there is six months right the difference between December 31st oh

I still don't know what the motion is I still don't know we got a vacancy is to see the council president was not awake the demand nobody in the city wants to the guy sir for a year or two you think that it's pretty clear that it should be limit five months six months and then after that it has to be a special election it's just that to me it's

I don't know I don't know what section are you you're yes yes you can okay we're going to revoke because the discussion is is clearly not over but Mr Bass if it's I want to address that I know we're trying to find a resolution but also think of this scenario what happens if when that vacancy occurs if the council president decides not to

it lays out temporary vacancy permanent vacancy but there is a succession Clause all right and we did change a little bit of language because unwilling to serve was a little offensive we struck that unable we just want to know whether you're able or not able so

stepping into the mail rules should it become bacon yes rather than becoming the council president and saying oh I would like you to council president but I also don't want to serve in that capacity should I be called to do so I think we have to keep voting yeah so Deanne okay I guess no I know okay

I withdraw the motion okay okay so is there another motion on the table regarding uh the recall eight hang on let's go back down there eight five I move if the motion is within the first 18 months of the elected term then there's a special election with the primary and a final if it's after 18 months within six months of the end of the term council president serves to remain the second of the six months

that's what it says is that that's pretty much what so does that yeah so your motion all that or just refer to three eight and three times just do it as emotion that way this we can correct that later no but I still well I can't vote on it because I don't know what it is is it three eight and three times I don't know I don't know I think you say

he's he's reverting he's saying I'm basically saying that language well what I don't like in there is it says a special election I think it should say a primary in a final because that came up I think we did way back in 91. no we didn't vote on it because that was a big question in 91 why was there a primary when it just says special election it doesn't say primary and Final

that's why we asked him so we can do a prelim especially yeah because it is an election just a special one but it has to happen yeah I mean if you're going to treat it as that important right and if you do the same with the vacancy I think more so with the recall because we have to find somebody to reference 310 right yeah well as the to fill the vacancy of the recall

that's created by the recall well yeah you may just wanted to find special election as a primary and a final within 90 days yeah so maybe we add uh there's no other special no okay so no so we would make eight five little age right eight five little H because there's no little age right we are um in whatever language is that motion yeah well I just wanted to refer to three

eight and three ten because that's the language yeah 18.

okay so emotion John made a motion is is John's motion to refer to three eight and three ten my motion is that if the recall takes place and there's voted a vacancy and the mayor is recalled within the first 18 months of the term then a special election is held which means a primary and a final if the recall is within the last six months of the terminal president takes yeah 180 days the the council

president serves as no election yeah so that's 310 but there but the problem with 310 is it doesn't say yeah we should call a special election to include a primary prelim yeah so um there's a motion on the table the language is going to mirror 310 however uh 310 has to wherever it says special election has to include a preliminary enough uh regular yeah but let's just vote yeah

um so where are you making a motion to add Section 8 yeah so we can change this later it's a reference section when they do the language they can yeah when they do the language they can create what we can all in favor roll call it's a big one it's been seconded oh second Jan sorry roll call vote Dan yes Paul yes Tim yes John yes yes yes okay motion pass is moving on

9-1 what time is it though okay that hurt my head like it's a Bruins game yeah 9-1 is titled Charter changes this Charter may be replaced revised or amended in accordance with any procedure made available under the state constitution or by the general laws and I just wanted to make a motion that either we start referring to the state constitution general laws for amendments but that language doesn't tell anybody

how to do it um so I want to make a motion that 9-1 include the specific language in the state law and the constitute I don't have it on me right now I just want the clerks to be able to reference what they're talking about have a second a second any discussion on line one and Charter changes all in favor anybody opposed to being clear opposed to being clearer yes yes nine six

which this kind of gave me a headache too nine six periodic review of Charter which you know I'm already upset that doesn't say the charter but not later than July 1st at 10-year intervals in each year ending in a seven I I have to go on I have to go on okay wait a minute let me read let me read this into the record section 9-6 periodic review of Charter

not later than July 1st at a 10-year at 10-year intervals in each year ending in a seven the mayor and the city council shall provide for a review to be made of the city Charter this review shall be made by a special committee to consist of seven members all of whom shall be voters in the city city council president shall appoint four members two of whom shall be counselors two of whom

shall be residents but shall not be elected or appointed officers of the city the mayor shall make two appointments and the school committee Vice chair shall make one appointment the appointing authority shall fill any vacancies within 21 days the special committee shall file its Report with the city clerk not later than August 1st in the following in the year following the year in which the

committee is appointed the recommendations of the special committee shall appear on the city council's agenda for Action before August 15th in such year and if not so scheduled by the city clerk the matter shall become before the city council for Action at its meeting next held following August 15th and no other business shall be in order until such report has been acted upon by roll call vote copies of any

recommendation shall be made available to the public on the city website shall be available upon request at no cost not to exceed the actual cost of the reproduction copy shall be available

well no we're a different one we're we're actually special committee we're a special committee we are oh I can't even find it yeah we are actually part of something else but anyways there's a motion to strike the entire portion so strike and it was second was it seconded I don't know one sentence that would be more clear I don't think it depends seconded yet Dan's motion is to strike all the

language in there the whole section I mean there certainly needs to be a periodic review before we do that I'm going to guess that there's some statutory language that applies to the Charter Amendment I haven't looked at it no just a review this isn't an amendment this is just a periodic review I'm gonna I'm gonna guess that there's some statutory language that talks about periodic reviews of Charters because

they're defined Charters are defined in the general laws so maybe what we should do is do some is table it and we each come up with our own paragraph possibly well see what the statute says is that a motion yes yes is it been seconded motion made by Paul to table it till we can come up with something better seconded by Tim all in favor aye aye okay so Dan's motion is tabled

in the whole nine six is that okay okay 9 12. that language is terrible that's all it's so horrible 9 12.

limitation on office holding unless otherwise Allowed by law or this Charter you already contradict yourself at the outset I'm not even making this up no person shall simultaneously hold more than one city office or position of employment this section may be waived by the mayor upon the appointment of a person to an additional office or position of employment by filing a notice of the waiver with an explanation

and justification with the city clerk any hours worked in any part-time position should not be the same or otherwise conflict with the hours worked in a full-time position I'm not even really sure what that means was this the one that was challenged yes by um by the school committee right well we also had it comes up in three places in uh the school committee article does it come up in the console too

yeah it comes up on um hang on let me just so you can see

um as I've classified this uh prohibitions I'm sorry Hessler was limited to the right there's a constitutional right to a run for all correct this seems to be referring to someone who is an employee or an elected official holding another city office and there's no constitutional right to hold the city off right but I but I'll tell you what though I think that the language just needs to be fixed because it's saying

that no person shall simultaneously hold more than one city office or position of employment so if so Alan can't be on the Committees The Corporation Council and he's a member of this I just think the language needs to be cleaned up you know what I mean I I think it means to say what you just said but he's not a voting member no I I know but I mean I'm trying to think of

other you know other places where I just it was Channel I just think the language needs to be fixed no no petslow's challenge was specific to being able to run for office talks about holding two officers so we fixed section four three is a Prohibition and we fixed it because it said November the school committee shall hold any other compensated City position we we take no former member yeah right we fixed that

um Tracy's talking sorry it's a situation where I'm in this right now at the University where I hold a position of being paid for my day position and I was hired to an additional position to do an extra project because of my expertise during the day position so I'm having additional compensation with hours outside to perform those duties if this was in the rules I would not be able to

do that so I'm thinking about that and don't want to limit the possibility of someone who's otherwise qualified to hold a position within the city for the good of the city right so maybe it should mirror the other language no you can't have too compensated I mean you could have the position you just can't get the two compensations I think I think the title limit on office holding is a little bit ambiguous okay

because that implies to me an elected office so I think that you know we should clean up the language to specify and this does also provide Wings yeah I like the I like the way around it I just think that it needs to be a little more specific you're right so maybe the clerks could um clean the language up and bring it back okay in your draft later okay moving on felony conviction 913.

an elected official who has been convicted of a state or federal felony while holding office shall be deemed to have vacated the office well they can run while holding it yes we can't keep them off the ballot they can run but you know I wrote notes on here though should the end of that sentence stay um you know vacated the office from the date of the conviction yeah it's clear it's more precise

um I didn't bring it with me tonight but there was a case in which the Boston city council voted to um I'm getting turned come on first his turn in the Boston city council voted to terminate Turner because he had been convicted of a felony but a penalty had not been imposed in that case the issue the SJC indicated that the city council did not have the authority to order a vacate a fellow City Council

because no penalty was imposed was it the penalty part it's just a statement of fact they don't hold that they said that the city council didn't have the authority but the charter does yeah it's different than Charter okay nice but do you think it needs from the date of the conviction yes an elected official has been convicted of a state or federal felony while holding office shall be deemed to have

vacated the office but wouldn't appeal no right is it usually it just just regardless of appeal from the date of conviction I think it just I think it I think generally they go where the jury comes in I don't think anyone gets a right for the even if they're not incarcerated I think generally it's it ends the day that you're reverted right from the day of the conviction to just add from the date of conviction

on 9 12 9 13. second all in favor any more discussion no all in favor any oppositions thank you motion passes uh that's what I have for today I'm not saying that's all we have that's all that's on the agenda today and I'm leaving it I'm absolutely leaving it to what's on the agenda and uh with that do I have a motion to adjourn anybody before we drink can we just what are we

coming back though on we had a couple things right so there's no we're coming back on um nine six yep and we're coming back um and the limitation of office holding where are we the language in that because I'll tell you what we're going to come back on 9 6 and I'm going to send an email out if there is another portion of the charter that anybody wants to go back to

because I know that there was discussion about going back if you could send me an email I'll put it on the agenda for next Monday because we're meeting every Monday except Memorial Day so if there is a a section you want to go back over send it to me it'll go on the agenda because now we're getting to the point where our clerks are going to need time to come up with the reports and we're

going to have to meet to read it and then go over it so are we going when they come up with the first draft are we going to be able to amend that right absolutely it's just a draft it's absolutely when the final report comes up we're voting on the final report to send if we have it done we'll have it done yeah it'll be done um so just so we uh motion to adjourn

has been made second seconded all in favor all right