5.13.2024 Special Charter Review

to the May Monday May 13th 2024 special Charter review committee meeting we are meeting in the hearing room at one government center in fiver Massachusetts the open meeting law pursuant to the open meeting law any person may make an audio or video recording of this public meeting or may transmit the meeting through any media attendees are therefore advised that such recordings or Transmissions are

being made whether perceived or unperceived by those present are deemed acknowledged and permissible can you please pleas join me in the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all thank you and can we have the attendance starting from my

right Paul M Reena Brown Kathy ovich Laura Samson Tim Campos and in attendance is Alan Rumsey member de facto and Corporation counsel correct and right now um uh public comment and seeing none um Corporation Council came down um at our last meeting we were discuss discussing proposed um um revisions to include a penalty portion in the charter in Corporation Council if you wouldn't mind coming up to the

microphone I did email and meet with Corporation counsel regarding um this committee's ability or you know authority to uh put a penalty portion in there and I will turn it over to attorney Ramsey yeah just briefly I'm sorry I don't have it in front of me so I don't have the exact uh you know sections there but in essence there there are two reasons I'm here one uh the charter already has what happens if

somebody's in violation of the charter it's already a part of that um it doesn't happen very often but typically you know what has happened in the past is somebody will challenge the charter or or believe there's a violation that gets actually sent to my office to review it um and then from there you know if somebody disagrees with it then then there are other then you can take

it to a court and it can go before a judge but I mean the other issue I guess is it's I just want to make sure board understands that it's it's a very big difference between a charter which is more of the organizational nature uh it's it's our constitution it's organizational it's a separation of powers kind of document the executive branch does this the legislative branch does that whereas fines and things like

that are more for ordinances you know you didn't put your the wrong kind of trashes out minimum housing issues things of that nature speeding tickets all that kind of thing so that we have the 40u procedure already in place but I think it it's I don't think it's the right place to have something as for fines for organizational violations and you know just as a quick aside it's not

entirely relevant I guess but you know the people who would be arguably violating this are often people who are very difficult to impose any sanctions on um you know if if you we haven't noticed we you know we've had former politicians who we believe have broken rules and it's very very difficult to do anything uh unless they if an elected official is short of violating a committing a crime it's very difficult

to have any kind of enforcement power against an elected official um you understand the where that came up that question came up because we had created a um a charter Review Committee to review any allegations of Charter violations so where we had discussed or asked is there any penalty that can be imposed it's within that the scope of the charter Review Committee are you saying we can't even

form a charter you know Review Committee regarding Charter violations well right now Corporation Council deals it's my office that deals with it which I mean frankly I think it makes sense you have the lawyers who review the legislative intent of of the charter to enforce it and you know what I worry about and you can see it in today's society um you know if you weaponize certain things

they're not always done for the right reasons they're often done for political reasons and I worry about something like that where um if anybody can just come in an alleged violation because they don't like a politician I mean it it's happened before I'm sure it'll happen again um I don't I don't think a review board can very easily become politicized and I'm not sure that that is a good

idea well we've been through the charter though and there's no specific language in here if a citizen alleges a violation there's no specific language in our Charter um just for example if if I think that the mayor or school committee member has uh violated the charter by you know doing something that is beyond the scope of the power given to them in the charter there is nothing in here

that says okay if you think a school Committee Member you know uh ordered DPW to sweep his driveway unless somebody files an ethical complaint but there's nothing in the charter that explains what people do if that situation arises well I've had complaints in my office or at least issues that arise where I've looked into and you know I'm not sure you know I've always looked into

them I can't think of one all fan that I thought was with Merit U but there were issues that have come off there is there is so section 914 um I'll read it into the record though just so you know too on 914 enforcement of Charter Provisions it shall be the duty of the mayor our proposed addition was and all elected officials to see that the charter is faith Yul followed and that

all City agencies and city employees comply with its Provisions whenever it appears to the mayor that a city agency or city employee is failing to follow this Charter the mayor shall in writing cause notice to be given to such City agency or city employee directing compliance with the charter if it shall appear to the city council that the mayor is not adhering personally or following the

charter the city council by resolution direct the attention of the mayor to those areas in which which it believes there's a failure to comply with the charter the procedures made available in chapter 231 of Mass general laws may be used to determine the rights duties status or other legal relations arising under this Charter including any questions of construction or validity which may be involved in such

determination in Mass General law 231a is that summary judgement uh um procedure because we I think everybody got a copy of it I would hope we I sent it out um but other than that that doesn't our problem was that you know regular residents and citizens don't have a procedure to file a complaint this just leaves it to them and I get what you're saying about imposing a penalty but we

thought that the charter if it's a construction document right telling the city how it's going to run itself wouldn't there also be a portion in there telling Joe citizen if you think something's going wrong here's how you do it well I think that's a little different than the question you were asking and I can tell you that most citizens are very well aware of how to make a complaint in City Hall um but

having something in there um you know I don't I don't know that's necessary but that's that's very different than the question I was posed before right I mean and getting back to what you were saying you know if an employee does something that is against the charter I mean frankly the employee can lose their job right um the mayor is the executive officer even with the charter which has

slightly taken away the mayor's Powers it's still a strong it's a modified plan a city uh plan a being the mayor is extremely strong and you know bcda it gets less and less power so and we're kind of a our chter is a modified plan a right um so the mayor has the power to enforce I mean the American to terminate employment for somebody who refuses to follow the charter um and the checks and

balances allows the city council to point out when they think the mayor's not falling the charter and you know that would be where I would jump in and if if need be I mean as I said it's very difficult to take action against an elected official whether it's city council school committee or the mayor not trying to single anybody out but that's what the declaratory judgment actions are for in the court but I mean

as with most things you know you're not supposed to nobody has the authority to file lawsuit on behalf of the city without the permission of my office first so we kind of look over it to make sure that you have a valid claim there's a legal basis behind it and and then file it so the same idea would come before my office we look at it and if we think that has Merit we would do what's

what's best for the city so we can so we would have the authority to change the language in this enforcement of it because we may we modified some of the language in it I believe at our last meeting uh because that's what my notes say we fixed that cleaned up the language a little bit but you don't think that we have the authority to form a grievance committee the the thought was um there

was discussion that it would be a three panel grievance committee um uh one by one selected by the mayor one by the city council one by the school committee to um at least you know the the complaint goes to the city clerk they send notice to the mayor per the charter and this grievance committee has it and within 30 days reviews it um you think that that's beyond the authority of the

of the charter well to change the charter in any provision it's it's a number of Hoops so I mean I wouldn't suggest it I I I don't think it's a a good resolution but that being said I mean the charter is what the people want it to be so if it's the recommendation of this board as you know the board is just recommendations there's many Hoops it gets to before it actually is enacted

I mean I'm not saying you don't have the authority to make that recommendation I I I don't personally like it but it's I'm not on the board that's it's your decision to make I wouldn't I wouldn't say that you have to substitute my judgment for yours we did have a fair amount of public input that talked about the fact that the charter was not in some people's opinion being followed so

the charter committee rather than you just getting a complaint from a you know an individual the charter committee gets the complaint here's whatever evidence is going to be presented and then writes a written response correct yeah there was you know something along those lines if there was something there um and then and then I get that's where the rest of this but we thought that the charter

that one of the proposed resolutions is that if this Charter grievance committee found a violation a school Committee Member told DPW to clean his driveway um that that you know that there would be a process they would be due process in that you know anything from a letter of you know don't do it anymore to a fine was something that could be done that's what that's kind of at the end of the

day what I was asking you is that penalty portion because one of the largest comments from people is why have a harder if nothing happens when you don't follow it that was the kind of most of the the comments um from people was um you know was it's a dog with no bite I go go ahead um so what is what is the process right now so a citizen files a complaint the charter wasn't filed what

happens where does that what how does that process go for well I mean I guess I want to know a little a little better example yeah so a past example uh the city council summoned the superintendent for non-budgetary that was one a few years ago the city council demanded that the superintendent the former superintendent appear before it and it was only about his performance which clearly in the

charter cannot happen I mean so what a lot of it honestly it's we'll get complaints about people just don't like the way people are doing their jobs um and a lot of it really isn't even an alleged Charter violation they'll kind of try to Pigeon hold in there and it's not um so I mean so I guess what I'm is there a clear path to filing a complaint right now so if let's

say there's legitimate or non-legitimate complaint someone feels that they have a legitimate complaint what is the clear path that someone would take with that um complaint how would they go about doing that well I the way it's happened and I'm not saying this is the best process is usually somebody will uh raise an issue with either a local politician or department head if there's

any Merit to it sometimes gets elevated um and then you know sometimes gets elevated to for example to the mayor's office and the mayor's office say hey we take a look at this I'm this there might be something here most of them they're really it's it's complaints without any much Merit but sometimes you'll get something that's at a minimum worth looking into right um and then sometimes

you know I I can give you one example without using names or anything you know there's a question about um whether somebody could run an election because of their residency so that was something serious enough to look into we looked into it and I found that there were numerous definitions of residency depending on for what purpose for tax purposes maybe one thing for running an election is

another thing and there's there there's numerous definitions so I mean the answer was uh we're not going to pursue it we we think it's not a valid issue um I mean it wasn't it wasn't publicized it was just something an email to the person who raised it and said that you know gave him the different definitions and said it's nothing worth pursuing so I guess my concern is this if there is

not a clear path then we need to Define that clear path maybe because if we I don't even know if we established a committee for complaints if there's even a clear path for them so if we have a committee that takes the complaints well then what is their clear path what do they do is it going to automatically get bumped up to you do they have the deciding factor so I think we have to

decide what that clear path is and then how we need to outline that in the chter I think we may be putting the cart before the horse here I guess my concern is this you know um we're a representative democracy I get it and I I don't want this these words to be twisted in any way but somebody has to to run the city and that is the executive branch which in the

city of Fall River is the mayor um you know I would worry if we have 90,000 people running the city um at some point you have to logistically you have to let the person run the city run the city and we can't have every little complaint rise to the level of this is going to go to the committee which gets elevated to a Corporation Council which you know potential lawsuit um weaponized we well

and it's also it's just somebody has to run it and the way we're set up it's I mean even things I mean I think we've all seen what's happened when you don't have any consistency in the city things don't get done and once we have the right people in place and the city's running things get done and it's more productive and better for the city when we're like that and I worry that this is

going to just slow everything down attorney Ramsey I appreciate that sentiment and but I think that if you're the clear path and I I actually like that like if the clear path is like we file a complaint that complaint goes up to the Law Department whoever is in that Law Department then that should be defined as the clear path I think that um absolutely that but I feel that maybe

there's just not a clear path maybe I'm just not right like the sentiment was to make the charter as user friendly as we could that the average citizen who picked it up they're not going to know what 231a of the Mass General law is but if they see a clear path you know it doesn't have to say this language but if you think there's a charter violation put it in writing forward it to

Corporation counsel or the mayor or both or maybe the department head because that's the other thing is I mean I think most of these issues are actually going to be ordinance issues honestly and and department heads routinely get uh questions complaints concerns um and as much as my office likes to know everything about everything we can't so you know if it's something about water and sewer it starting with water and

sewer makes more sense because a lot of times they can solve their own problems um no I I completely agree and then I think that if we're not careful then we can draw the line because then we're going to put a committee to you know who about parking tickets and if you have a complaint about a parking ticket what how do you how do you file complaint about you know I think so I think we can

you know well-meaning can get out of hand I think that just defining that clear path and I think that that's maybe what we should do is look for that clear path so with that I yield thank you but yeah we did get was a lot of public comment about violations of the charter which go on addressed yeah we didn't get we didn't hear people complaining about parking no but so but the charter

committee would accomplish one thing it would accomplish it would be that it would create a public record of complaints then they listen to the evidence depending on how much evidence they think is appro they issue a decision which is also a public record um but and based on what attorney Ramsey is saying I would think that it would be appropriate for them to just send their findings public record

findings to Corporation councel and Corporation councel can then decide what the appropriate penalties are so are you but there's there's like a track so you're looking for a paper Tri a paper maybe the maybe because I don't maybe people think that their complaints on the charter records go unrecognized because there's no there's no clear path clear path or clear written path no right and and that maybe things were

addressed and it just didn't get back to them so maybe that's where the problem lies because I you know if something's coming to your office and this this is deemed credible this is not credible here's why no one's getting back to the person that made the complaint or it's not made public public so maybe making the here is a violation here is the finding of that maybe that is through a

committee maybe it's not I do caution creating another body to oversee another process that's already been processed when we've got to define a process so I just maybe that body just you know for takes the complaints looks at them sends them up sends them back and that but do we call it a committee a review board May a review board of the complaints but you know what I think though though I

mean now after looking at it after hearing what council said like so who who is going to take their complaints to that committee because in the first paragraph we're saying that you know the mayor gets some of them so like we're saying if the mayor says that a city agency or city employee is failing to follow this Charter so like if I'm a city employee do I go to the mayor do I

go to city council or do I go to this committee or is it if I'm not a city employee then do I go to the committee like I think maybe where we creating more confusion about who like I think if there's going to be a path it needs to be a path clearly defined for everybody not like just a citizen you go over here you go there and then like we shouldn't

have multiple ways to file to enforce this Charter there should be one clear that and that I think that was the sentiment behind the grievance committee is that we were like you know you know where does it go but Dan Dan has been um thank you sorry Dan no problem the way the way I see this this may belong and I don't know I'm open to hearing what everybody else has to say just like

they've been doing maybe this is a part of a citizen participation initiative maybe it's part of article 8 maybe it isn't I'm in favor of some citizen Review Committee I was never in favor of monetary penalties of any kind because I think the corporation coun absolutely correct I think that's outside the scope of this board I I don't think we have the jurisdiction uh to monetarily we find

anybody so I do like the the idea of a citizen uh Committee of three member committee I like the idea of a paper trail I like the idea of those meetings being public I like the idea of uh anybody putting together a complaint having the ability to go before uh somebody to discuss it and uh then they can do what they will with it let the Corporation Council review it and uh

what let the citizens follow up from there right most of the time it's a legal issue anyways um and I just want to make everybody know uh attorney Rumsey has to leave in about two minutes so if anybody has any further questions sorry I didn't mean question though to let you know that he have to go but but does that does what we're what we were saying about a committee though to council's point then take

power away from the mayor and the city council power that they have because ultimately they're going to be the enforcers right because that's why it's titled enforcement then why do we need to add another person I I just got to be very cautious and we got to think bigger than just so I I I'm working for government attorney Brown you're my boss we're just theoretically speaking right I think

that you're doing something unethical now I'm going to but I don't want to say I don't know I gotta complaint but I gotta I'm G to make a complaint that's going to go to a board that's going to be teli televised and you know not private so I think that that that right there you're weaponizing it so now people are not going to come forward because now it's going to sit on a panel

that's going to be in front of the TV and I can't come forward because what I need to so I just I question I just it's not wasn't the committee an alternative so that doesn't take away that's a difference that doesn't take away the mayor's ability has nothing to do with it if employees have complaints they're going to follow the that's why I said I think this committee is more for Citizens than it is for people

internally inside Government Center The Corporation Council May disagree with that and that's fine that's the way I see committee right most employees correct me if I'm wrong if there are issues within their Department are instructed there's a human resource department there's their boss there's their boss's boss right um but I too felt like that committee was more um to make that process user friendly I think

it does the opposite do you now that I know that there's a process I think if we just take that process and document it we solve the problem yes the biggest issue that we had was that there didn't seem to be any language in the charter to follow for citizen to follow we now have this process has been laid out for us I say we add that into don't change the process for expedience sake really I

mean if they have no teeth if they have no judgment why add them it's just sty the whole process I mean if we can't get it straight how do we think people are going if we can't be clear on it here how do we think people who outside of here what we voted I think is very clear we voted for a way for Joe citizen on malberry Street to file a complaint on

the sh there is that but that happens today where is it show show me show me where it is right on Section 914 enforcement of Charter Provisions is has been utilized by the city for I'm assuming right people people will call the mayor's office or department heads as they said sometimes it gets elevated to from wherever it begins all the way to my office you know and maybe it's just very clear all viol all proposed

violations go to you or go to the mayor it's clear in the charter that it's written that way yeah and so that people know what to do so it's not up to interpretation it's very clearly laid out and that was the biggest thing I think that we were concerned about is that there wasn't there wasn't really a procedure that was outlined for a city resident to follow if they did have a

complaint mam chair we already voted to put this three member Committee in well we but this link but it see I just I printed up an April version I have it all here from what can you read what um it's 9:14 correct yeah we we modified a added C and D can you can you read it from the top all the way to the end uh this is section 914 enforcement of Charter

Provisions section A it shall be the duty of the mayor and all elected officials to see the charter is Faithfully followed and that all City agencies and city employees comply with its Provisions whenever it appears that a city agency or city employee is failing to follow this Charter the mayor shall be notified in writing the mayor shall in writing cause notice to be given to such City agency or city

employee directing compliance with the charter if it shall appear to the city council that the mayor is not adhering to the Charter the city council shall by resolution direct the attention of the mayor to those areas in which it believes there is a failure to comply with the charter section B in order to promote enforcement of the charter Provisions a three- member grievance committee shall

be established one member of this committee shall be appointed by the mayor one by the city council and one by the school committee all appointed members Shall Serve for a two-year term and must be registered voters and residents of the city within 7 to 10 business days upon receiving a written complaint of an alleged Charter violation the committee shall schedule a meeting uh a meeting date not more than

30 days from receiving such complaint to discuss this violation at each meeting there shall be opportunity for public comment and the committee shall produce a written report concerning each alleged chart of violation section c the procedures made available in chapter uh 231 a of the mass general laws may be used to determine the rights duties status or other legal relations arising under this Charter including any

question of construction or validity which may be involved in such determination in section D all Charter grievances will become public record maintained by the city clerk Adam Jeff yes to be totally honest after hearing my colleague read that whole thing I think the grievance committee should stand alone it it's it's okay in there but it's that process is different from any other grievance procedure within the

city to me when we designed it I think and anybody correct me if I'm wrong the idea was to give John Smith from SED Street a place to go can I ask attorney Rumsey a question he has to Le AB absolutely so my question is we asked you about the uh penalties that they can impose and your response is that the grievance committee cannot impose penalties however is there any problem let's say the grievance

committee stands is there any problem with the grievance committee submitting a written report of its findings to your office and then you handle it from there no I mean not no I wouldn't recommend it but there's not a problem with it um you know right as I said it's it's it's your judgment that's what this board is for um and is that I mean I I do have to go

but I just I just want one last thing if I may the the first two or three meetings when I was here I mean when I went I tried to go over the what I was trying to do was go over every little issue that I've been involved with interpretation of the charter since I've been here it's been like four and a half years now so I mean this is something I

do on I wouldn't say a daily basis but it's a regular basis and any employee can call me uh City councilors the mayor I mean they'll call it's usually they'll ask before it becomes a problem hey what do we do here you know a lot of times it'll be something as simple as we want this employee to cover another position temporarily until we can fill it so you know it's the two hats provision that's

in the charter so you know I assist like here's what you can do here's how you would do it you know they can do it for I think it's 90 days the first one's a a 30-day temporary appointment I mean things like that happen all of the time so I mean I don't know if it's explicit or you know in the charter that you want everybody to know how to do it but it

happens on a very very routine basis I'm constantly asked what does this mean how should this be applied what do we do here um very I mean it's it's and that's a good thing it's it's more rare when there's a problem it's more of like Hey how do we do this we want to accomplish this goal we want to abide I mean everybody's trying to abide by the charter which is great um so I'm

constantly involved with it I just want to make sure that there is a mechanism in place and it works pretty well right now so with that I'm sorry thank you I it it I know that for us part of us doing this was to have citizens feel and believe that they have a voice so can I make a recommendation no which I would be okay remember that already passed

yeah so which I would be okay with um we got to change the language in there and I do like that language better than what I think was proposed here but it could should be an opt in like a if I was a resident and I had a complaint um I should be able to maybe opt in to a committee then I don't have to go to that committee if I didn't like what

attorney Rumsey said and I feel that he is not on my side he's against me he's with the administ all the things you hear right then I I I would like to take this to the Review Committee and then they take there's your second option but to have to sub MIT it to a Review Committee that's going to be up to him I think they're if we're establishing a Review Committee but that after what we

had voted on is and remember it's just a review I mean you know a three panel get a three member panel from each branch of our government um will listen to the com to the complaint and uh and the person who's accused right maybe and there I the the language in that is that they would submit a report I don't think they're going you know I don't think the authority of The Grieving committee is

Joe shimo should be fired or it's just that here's what this guy said here's what this guy said here's what we think but good luck Corporation Council yeah right and I think it should be an opted because if I'm reading it correctly what you just read there is all of these procedures that are followed correct Tim go ahead um I I just I want to say my assumption when we did this

was like the attorney isn't an elected official it's someone that works for the mayor and the city so I think the idea of having this committee is to remove that from within the house of the mayor absolutely right to give elected officials a chance to review it and then seek councel when it's in the city's best interest to seek councel like an unbiased set of eyes looking at it because we could do that anyway I mean

that's going to happen regardless because we're not the city's not going to move forward with anything without Council and certainly if there's big Charter violations and you know I think when we're talking about like ethical violations there's a different you know path for that with within the job maybe escalating it to department heads or things like that but as we're reading this is like election type stuff you

know there's a lot of meat that's in this Charter that could be misinterpreted and require someone to need to have a committee to to review it so I think if we're going to make a change like that we should think about what the intent of the committee is actually for because we we're trying to come up with a pathway in one but then we're also trying to take it outside of

the mayor's office and give it a chance for people to feel like they're being represented or they have a public place to discuss this as as the public so I think one thing that I noticed in this which is is the timeline which might make it a little bit Troublesome if that many violations that are coming in um because I think we had like a seven to 10 day response and then 30 days so

there may be something to address there if we want to continue keeping this and we're not going to review this um and it may be a regular Cadence of time and that might allow us to have a path to use legal council so they're not being bombarded either right um that that was just what I was kind of digesting as um attorney Rumsey was talking and then we were all kind of thinking out loud look

if the ISS big enough it's going to court well we've seen it already I think it's going to move its way up I think it'll move it right and I like what you said about it being that kind of out I I always thought that we did a great job of making this userfriendly of at least having the sentiment or it's been my observation that this committee has always been citizen centered right

um I don't think we've we've Fallen any any way mayor council or school committee and I liked the idea of that for the same reasons that it's a different set of eyes um and I I think it's a it's a kind of an informal proceeding where the person that's complaining can actually have an opportunity to have that complaint I mean and I'm not this is not a derogatory remark but I'll tell you my

observation has been you can make phone calls that sometimes are not returned immediately or within a certain time frame and that's frustrating to Citizens you know very off it's very right and I'm not being derogatory you know what I mean and I think one of the big advantages of the committee um is that it creates a public record so that if there's multiple violations that's clear and that becomes

an issue potentially at the next election right I wonder if there's some compromise here and that we don't have to give up the expedience of the current way it's been done but we also get that added protection for a citizen or at least perceive per I thought this was an alternative I thought I thought mayor city council citizen input yeah but how do we make that clear I I don't we just it C

we might just have to tweak the language a little bit is that we I wonder if we leave the current pathway in and because it it sounds like or at least it's being you know it sounds like it's expedient maybe that's not the case but if the Judgment comes out not in the person's favor the grievance committee is to say I don't like that answer I don't believe that's true I feel like I'm getting brushed off

I would like another opinion and then goes to the so you don't lose the experience of most of the of the processing but if if a person feels like they want to pursue this it's not just a sour grapes issue or it's not going after someone's character it's not being weaponized then this person may in fact pursue that grievance committee to argue the point make it optional not the

problem is TR like a place to go and that's where it would be the paper trail so if you don't like if you like it if you like the out maybe you don't that it's fine you like the outcome you get what you want you get your answer or you get a follow through by the mayor's office if you don't like the mayor mayor's office response then you have a grievance committee that you can go to

as a so make it more of an appeal process yes appeal I know I just I I I don't I don't like the citizens committee appealing what Corporation I know this is this something to decide I think everyone seems to be stuck we're all on the same thing but we're missing one thing which is how does someone and maybe this is what we need to Define how does someone put in a complaint that's what I'm

saying because no we didn't complain should we should we maybe look at that a little bit more and say okay this is the actual process that it has to go through then this is an alternative it's going to go through its process anyway there was there was public input that gave us a standardized Complaint Form like there was a cil's office it doesn't say that's what I said we have to define a clear path we've

done the work on this already it's not clear to me it's not well there was there are some pieces that do say some things so we may want to just what we did all right wait a minute Dan but here here's what I'm saying is this for everyone you heard him say that this happens on a regular basis so is it I have he doesn't get to tell this body

what to do he's not telling us what to do he was just answering the question go ahead Laura we keep saying that we voted on it and it's nothing's done we haven't voted on the I could just knock the whole thing down I no we voted on that language right there but we have not voted on a final so we have we have we didn't vote on like a form or procedure

cuz we were going to leave it to the grievance committee to come up with their own procedure I I feel I'm just going to say I feel that there um we can come up with better defining it and no it's not clearly defined we do not I there is not a clear defined Pathway to filing a grievance that should be defined first and I Mr Mado attorney Mado if you could elaborate from me from

my understanding what you mean when you say an alternative what does that mean so does that mean with the alternative I can alternatively file agreements with them or I can alternatively file agreements with cooperation councel is that what we're saying here no there was before so we came up with that alternative because there was no language in there for anything it was just it goes to the mayor's office and

then that was it so everything that was in enforcement was only section A that I read we added b c and d and we kind of Consolidated there was a previous SE crunch together so when people have a problem with the mayor's office where does it go to the mayor's office uh to the city council is that defin by resolution too that's in a different part no it's in the same it's in a I'm

pulling up the Old Charter yeah so the city council will not May yeah if it should up violation but I'm not clear then so who was the grievance committee for what do you mean the the Review Committee yeah is it for everyone else after the mayor and the city council or everybody so if a city agency or city employee has an issue they're no longer going to go to the mayor they're going

to go to the grievance committee no no no it does not remove those Provisions it adds a provision it just gives an extra an extra level of I would say protection for the citizen to say that there was another set it gives them a voice they have no voice right now they pick up the phone they call Allen or the mayor they say hey I think somebody's violating the charter and that's it and that's frustrating for

anybody because you don't get call backs you don't get a written letter saying listen we got your complaint but isn't looking into it we previously voted that there should be a standardized grievance form y that that will be submitted to the committee the threers committee that was unanimously um and that whatever they hear is are public records and they have to have public input at their meetings so they have to

allow public input then the only thing that we didn't vote on was what sanctions would be available which obviously that was coming down yeah which is obviously why not so what they will do is file a report yeah I understand but here's where my problem lies if what attorney Brown is saying that we right now people are calling they're not getting calls back people are not getting response to what they

complained that's a problem so we're going to add another portion in here that people don't we can't even follow what's in front of us now no no no that's why we're going to have the grievance committee so that these people can be heard it can be recorded and they have a voice it's a public meeting and we've C seen plenty of public input at our meetings so when the public has an

opportunity to appear at a public meeting that's a very different process than filing a complaint with the mayor I totally understand but also in our own Charter it doesn't line out still and are we missing for the citizen that you will get a call back in hours you will have a the discussion was that the 101 the no be nice the discussion no the discussion was that the grievance committee would be able to the them

themselves you know uh if they want to come up with a standard Complaint Form or if you know how often they want to meet or where they're going to meet I mean I we we voted that in that was a while ago and then we but part of the discussion was that the grievance committee themselves once they are selected for the two-year term they don't have to meet just when there's a

complaint the first time they meet they can decide right should we come up with a form should we have this form available like they themselves are going to be able to kind of create the we we cannot micr manage them no but it doesn't Prelude them a person then from reaching out to the office to ask for clarification does not stop those processes can still OCC there only at the point where you want to file a

grievance would you reach out and fill out this form to this committee yes it would happen if you choose to go straight to the grievance committee because you don't trust you know you've got you've got a complaint against the city council uh maybe you right more comfortable going straight to the public grievance get choose the no the grievance committee portion clearly says mayor's notified in

writing and if it's the mayor the city council is the grievance committee is just the receiver of the complaint they would automatically have to send one to the mayor or to the city council depending on the contents of the complaint they meet they have their public hearing they write a report so goes to Corporation councel so does every G at that point so does every grievance go to the

committee no if I pick up the phone call mayor's office and say Laura Washington's having DPW break her driveway I got a problem with that no I don't think that makes it to the grievance committee unless I go to the clerk's office and say give me one of those complaint forms I want this one and writing and then yeah they can opt but either way whether it's me picking up the phone

calling up the mayor or filling out that form available at the clerks it's all going to end up at the mayor's somehow and it's going to end up at Corporation Council what it does because we have heard a number of public comments about the fact that there have been a lot of Charter violations and this creates a public process so that if citizens claim that there's a chter violation there's a public hearing right

they hear and and maybe 10 people come in say you know what's funny I called about Laura having her driveway plowed last winter and nothing happened and but at least this grievance committee there's Laura three years in a row having a driveway plowed by the DPW be watching it next one that's it there she is again all right so can you tell me what's next I'm a person making a complaint so I decide that that I

there's something that I need to report what do I do first you can pick up the phone or get a a form at the clerk's office so I call the mayor's office and I make a verbal complaint what happens after that the according to the Charter the there's a procedure the mayor has to do this this and this okay do I know that where is that written that's what I'm saying at least this grievance

committee will kind of be part of that and if I decide that I don't want to go that route there'll be an alternative rout for me to follow which is a I think if you call the mayor's office according to the Charter right now the mayor is supposed to do everything in his power to make sure again I'm going to use Laura in the driveway you've called the mayor's office and said Laura is having DPW plow

her driveway I'm not happy with it clearly a charter violation right because it says she can't go have order department heads to do stuff for her the mayor according to this Charter right now is going to call Laur and say stop having DPW ply your driveway and he's going to call DPW and say hey stop plowing LA's driveway is that the end of it this doesn't say it that's the thing there's

no record of it and and I think so echoing Paul some of these this input from the public are I don't want to say this it be taken wrong repeat offenders and there's no record of it well the fact that there would be we could just say there needs to be a record it needs to be made public in a repository that's available to the city orable to City resents you don't

necessarily need a commit if that g committee isn't going to really do anything except make a recommendation correct so I feel like Comm did specifically authorize that uh the grievance committee records are public records so that's very specific that's not the same public record that's not the same for complain could we just say that that there has to be a form that's public record for any

complaint and that it goes into some repository that's accessible by City residents or by people that then you solve that problem without having a whole another process on top of the existing process well the question with the process is how does like let's say it's um it's a violation that is affecting more than just one single person so let's say it's a body of people how where do they go to there in

that public statement where you put in the grievance you put in the report you are kind of the one titled on everything but yet there could be a hundred people that have the same feeling and I think that was one of the areas that this didn't address was maybe maybe some of these examples are not good because it's you getting some you know a a government body to plow your driveway but it's not

something that's affecting the general pop this like your neighbor who's mad but it's not you know it's not something major that's happening affecting vot like you know 100,000 so give an example well um I would just say as an example it's just anything that would be more than one person right if it's you being affected and you're being affected you have no place you could put in the

report and say there's a violation and then you're kind of dealing with it head on but what if someone else has a comment if it's public record it's public comment people will show up and they'll be able to you know voice their grievances as well so can I make a suggestion here because I see Mr is still present and I do know from public input that Mr Venice has said that there have been Char alleged Charter

violations in the past so perhaps he can remember if you um Mr Venice can you come up though and speak into the microphone and don't forget to say hi I am Mr Venice

you Hi H oh all get in trouble first of all first of all just state your name for the record oh aie vanish 25 rights by father of a mess thank you first of all I think this commit first of all there should be Charter violations some stuff talking about not Charter violations no plowing a driveway is a charter violation well I don't agree with that well it is because it

clearly states that we for the rocket no one's plowing my a city council cannot order a Public Employee to do something for them a child of violation which is supposed to be a resident the to sit on a committee and if you're not resident of the city that's a chart of violation right that's another one well if you degrees per if your different degrees if your personal driveway is not getting plowed how a guy

to plow your driveway Mr Venice can I ask you a question just did one of the let me ask you another one then one of the big chot of violations that you have talked about in the past was is um a mayor being absent so when someone's recalled maybe this is an area for that if you're recalled you go back on the ballot uh you know you said it shouldn't

be on the ballot you should be taken off is this an area that you would think that would be beneficial to having a charter review are you really revisiting recall right now no no I'm just I'm I'm talking about Charter violation that would affect multiple the multiple cities you're talking about a driveway that doesn't exist I'm talking about something I don't want to be disrespectful but and

bringing up recall which we already voted on the language the language of the chter is going to handle that I don't want to be disrespect what instance would you would say that would be a clear path to using a charter I think what are some of the repeated Charter violations I think the grievance committee should be at the top of the triangle then underneath that is the mayor and the City

Council or they work together either then the May gets the gripe or complaint and then he fors it or works with the grievance committee because first of all you know if there's a violation of the charter and you go to the mayor and the mayor rules on it you you know you're given the power the mayor's already violating the charter not necessarily our current man but the May's already

violating the charter then you got to go to him and say hey you're violating the charter and is going to say yes so what there's a different process then you got the same thing then you got the same thing with the our question was you have said that there have been multiple violations of the charter so what we asked for was examples of the um violations that were alleged all one of the one of the

violations that was hot and heavy at the institution in the new Charter was people holding more than two jobs or sitting on more than one committee you the Char said they whatever it said at the time I can agree with that right so we went to city council I spoke my wife spoke other people spoke and it got to the point where the city council as soon as an appointment came up the first

question they asked did this person sit on another board and they recognized that for a while that lasted three or four months maybe five months and all of a sudden went by the wayside and now there's people sitting on different boards and the process is still there's people sitting on multiple boards there's ongoing violations now some have to but some have to but the nature they were

okay preservation committee requires right people to be members of others one of the other things was public input they was a something in there about public input every well some ws and committees were having the public input at the end of the meeting now what purpose does that serve that the person can't speak about something that's on the topic and you already voted on it I got you and and believe there still at

least one that I can the uh that it at the end right now yeah what's his name has it uh the I don't know one review board the plan not planning review zoning board of appeals and those F that I can record so so a number of I know that you were active other members of the original chat commission were active in raising issues of violations correct yeah of course the the hler decision and

everything that was a big well that's that's a legal decision so um what's the story with how you people felt about your responses we still felt we were right the only option we had had at that time was I don't know what 321 or whatever it is whatever that was that was supposed to be a 10 10 uh person 10 the 10 taxpayer lawsuit taxpayer lawsuit right and my wife and I started raising money

for 10 pay taxpayer lawsuit we got 10 people to do it we started raising money and then yourself and some other lawyers got involved and we went to New Bedford and it all got resolved in court and whatever money we raised hopefully PID some of your bill just for the record I did not get paid for a bill well I don't know where our money went I I don't want to muddy

the waters but there was a 10 taxpayer lawsuit around the Jil time oh um but we did not receive compensation I know I got put on the tax pay lawsuit and I was standing there were 10 taxpayers I stand the corner with sign saw summary judgement so so you raised not get paid committee M we did try to we did try to initiate a 10 pay we did raise a minimum amount of

money maybe $300 or whatever which never you raised issues at city council the issues that we were talking about got resolved in New Bedford in the court no but what I'm talking about is the complaints of the violation of the chop you and other members of the committee made complaints to the mayor to the city council about sh of violations did you feel that I mean I can dig out all

letters to the mayor yeah did you think that those were responded to did you get a did you get responses from the city when you complained no see not once did not once did the mayor I don't think it was the current mayor but not once did the mayor respond right okay so if there was a committee that was established and that would be a public hearing would that make you feel better about

I think I think the charter committee should be somewhere at the top of the I get what you top of the board and then they could say hey we got we got this complaint Mr Mayor we got this complaint you're violating the charter then they should work together with the mayor or have the ability to work together with the mayor and resolve the issue if the mayor doesn't want to resolve the issue

then they take it further same thing with the city council if the city council isn't uh following the charta okay basic basically but I think I think that I think that commit is got to be resolved got to be in the first first step of the process well whether it's first it's an option it's an option and that would give you an option to get some response correct right and and without getting the response you people

felt I mean we never had the ability to work with the mayor the city council I just think it's hard to to say okay Mr Mayor you're Viola viation let's about this I hear yeah but that was the issue back then but but I hear I share your sentiment that they an unbiased committee that receives these complaints would make you feel heard right an unbiased committee a three member committee thank you if you had a

complaint and you brought it to a thre member committee where you had an opportunity to speak where it was recorded where you could bring and then they would be my representative from there and and you would be able to present that is that they would make sure that the mayor get it the city council get it and whoever else is in there it's a public record it's a public record right which it was our sentiment

behind this when we did this I don't necessarily think you know they should go to the mayor directly or what you know they can but if the mayor gets a complaint he should forward it to the grievance committee the grievance committee gets a complaint they should forward it to the mayor yeah they needs to be a paper trail yeah and then they they G committee can hold these will be public records and then at the next

election it can be raised that there have been multiple complaints and there's been no response Etc but thank you what I wanted to know from you and I believe you've answered that is that you and the other members of the committee had made multiple Comm complaints in the past none of which you feel were heard and that's the benefit of this grievance committee is to allow I think some of the violation still happen to

the day that's why I first said I wondered if it belonged in article that's the CTI one of the other complaints was and no disrespect to this committee but you know you have a meeting and you never get a quum or you have a meeting and you have four or five of the or three I want Lot number you have three and you have a hard time getting a quorum but those three jobs

and political appointments and they're never filled and nobody cares that these people don't show up you know thank you that's another thank you Mr V thank you for let me speak so section8 arle I know article eight so which I actually I don't have a particular so article eight is titled citizen participation mechanisms I think Dan might beond to something to just move it over there or leave it where it is citizen

participation no you're right you're right yeah Dan I'm not with I'm not with you on this one Dan we voted we voted we voted voted for the Char committee we voted for the Char committee on our last meeting on April 8th y we unanimously approved it the only question we had was penalties what penalties we just leave it they send the report the then whatever then it goes from there I think for me what having

the cooperation Council come down and describe there is a path is a little bit of difference in confusion that we probably didn't have in making the decision you know I'm okay with leaving it in if it's an alternative it's not the way that it's written yeah so the grievance committee the grievance committee writes a written report we've already voted that that's all going to be public record they have to now

they're going to be public record unlike what Mr Venice said where they made multiple complaints but there's no record of those if someone chooses to go to the grievance committee it's all public record and now it goes to let's say they find a violation and it goes to Corporation councel goes to the city council nothing happens there's a public record and now they can question City councilors I

won't name anybody now they can question City councilors about why didn't you address this right but I repeated violations if I may I also feel that there should still be even if it doesn't get to the committee a written response to to the to the public I I have a hard time with that you can make a complaint it goes and then you don't hear anything back there should be we might not I

still think that maybe we could around that language say and after you know step one step a there goes to the mayor a written report will then be filed to the complainant on the findings simple or something like any complaint will receive a written response in a timely manner leave it open-ended because if you put 96 year why that is really going to and I I'll tell you I think I have problems uh

with that seven to 10 day I'll tell you I we've worked our rear ends off on this committee for going on quite a while now right and life gets in the way and people have prior commitments I I think that should be extended I I just can you read that time frame again or not put time in there yeah Tim could you ring that read that portion back about the time frame read

the whole thing again CU I'm not can you read the whole thing again uh like all of the yeah do the whole thing again well and can I just say the reason I'm asking is because are we still saying this is an this is an option someone has in addition to the other options of going it's in there already we voted unanimously I understand that but we haven't voted on accepting the whole

Charter so I still can still discuss things so I'm not clear process so the there's Tech there's essentially two processes that can happen number one section A is it goes to the mayor's office or it goes to city council if it's about the mayor that's going to take a course of its own right but there's also the the review so if that violation becomes something it's going to find its way to the grievance

committee on its own or a person can go straight to the grievance committee with their paper the report that the grievance committee is going to put together on their own and they'll be able to file that so it's kind of in you call the mayor's office on the phone it's going to walk through that process the mayor's going to notify and writing this and I'll read it just to you know

and then maybe there's because what I was just doing was trying to add something to say that notice will come back to the person who's being the complainer right because that's one thing we don't have so so heard this whole time a lot of this is there's no paper TR so I think our job is less to drill down every process and step but to cover it from a writing perspective so

that we can see that someone put something in it went to the mayor's office someone had to document something it went here it's documented goes to a committee it's documented that way there's always a record of it regardless of which path it goes through all of because I don't know if we can control that through the charter because they could change that process within the mayor's office say hey anything anything

that comes in is going to this person and it's going to come here and then you tell me you know I don't know if we can you know and and where will it be held so if we if we ask for writing for something in writing both written allegations and then written response to those allegations who where will it be held so it will be held in city clerk yes so we have all Charter grievances

will become public record maintained by the city clct so we could even so we do need a motion to modify yeah if we want to if we want to can you read it all again I I yeah read read can you read it from the beginning again yes all right go ahead um section 914 enforcement of Charter Provisions it shall be the duty of the mayor and all elected officials to see that the charter is Faithfully

followed and that all City agencies and city employees comply with its Provisions whether it appears that a city agency or city employee is failing to follow this Charter the mayor shall be notified in writing the mayor shall in writing CA no to be given to such City agency or city employee directing compliance with the charter if it shall appear to the city council that the mayor is not adhering to the Charter the

city council shall by resolution direct the attention of the mayor to those areas in which it believes there is a failure to comply with this Charter section B subsection B in order to promote enforcement of the charter Provisions a three- member grievance committee shall be established one member of this committee shall be appointed by the mayor one by the city council and by the school committee all

appointed members Shall Serve for a two-year term and must be registered voters and residents registered voters and residents of the city within seven to 10 business days upon receiving a written complaint of an alleged Charter violation the committee shall schedule a meeting date not more than 30 days from receiving such complaint to discuss the violation at each meeting there shall be

opportunity for public comment and the committee shall produce a written report concerning each alleged Charter violation subsection C the procedure made available in chapter 231a of the Massachusetts general laws may be used to determine the rights Duty status or other legal relations AR arising under this Charter including any question of construction or validity which may be involved in such determination

subsection D all Charter grievances will become public record maintained by the city cour so nice I like it I I like can I can we an amendment to that a little can I just propose something yeah I we're still discussing all right can we add in there that any of the I don't know what section to any of the find findings be made given a written report to the complainant so so this is what I had

already cued and we can if we want to work with it so I looked at se subsection a and the the sentence that the mayor shall in writing cause notice to be given to such City agency or city employee directing compliance with the charter with a copy of such notice provided to the claim something like that we can expand on it but just I love it so that goes directly in line with what we're trying to

accomplish and then I'd like to make it a motion to adopt his well wait a minute because there's another place you have to add it yes there's another one so don't jump the gun yet all right the other place that that needs to be added is at the end yes so well it will be at the section B with the grievance committee because whatever report and the committee shall produce a written

report concerning each alleged Charter violation with a copy of such notice provided to the claim right and then D and then all Charter grievances will be and notices and notices right in in um committee report yes right yes all Charter well we could change yeah we could add all Charter grievances notices you know um and reports right findings will be maintained by the city clerking right so

we're adding the language to include notice to the complaintant in those three areas is that your motion Laura yes it is respon are you going to change anything that's what we're talking about we're talking about the the grievance report and we're going to remove what about the timing the seven days so it sounds like the complaint is the complaint is made but they just have to set a date within

7 to 10 days and then meet within 30 right do you think we should expand it or take the time frame take the time frames out so I think that we should you're the lawyer I don't think we should put timing in there because I think if let's say they get one violation or they get a hundred you know them meeting on these regular Cadence is going to be really difficult for

appointed group of individuals so it may be like every three months they meet they can meet as many times as they want but they have a mandatory meeting every three months to address the accumulation of violations I mean because at the end of the day Charter violations are not life-threatening we're we're not talking about emergency situations that require immediate attention I'm not saying that they're

not important I'm just saying that maybe we take the time we take seven to 10 and 30 days out and just put they'll set a date period they'll meet and have a public hearing period and it gives them when they meet they can decide right maybe they get 50 of you know every six months and decide to do it twice a year I don't know but as long as the procedure is adhered to

yeah I think we should allow them to have the flexibility so the it's a big motion so I'll make a motion that we add the language of the responses or notice to the complaintant in those three areas as well as remove the time constraints that's my motion I'll second that a motion that motion motion made by Reena any further discussion seeing done all in favor what's oh no mean oh no hold on

one second I just want I want to make sure I have all this good okay um because there was should I wait on the vote or can vot one second I just want to read it back so we're all before we make a motion and make a before we vote the mo the mo the amended uh motion will be read back to us how's that sound sounds good okay I don't have the lingo

I'm not a veteran at this all right so I know if I can delay a vote I think um all right so I have modifications to subsection a b and d yes um would you like me to read it one more time all of it does anybody need a red one more time you want me to just read the section the the sentence we're going to change read the sentence okay thank you I appreciate

that um all right so subsection a um the sentence that's going to change is the mayor shall in writing cause notice to be given to such City agency or city employee directing compliance with the charter with a copy of such notice provided to the complaintant subsection B at each meeting yeah so we removed the time y we deleted within seven to 10 business days upon receiving a written complaint of an

alleged Charter violation the committee shall schedule a meeting date not more than 30 days from receiving such complaint to discuss violation yep we took that out that yep then at each meeting there shall be opportunity for for public comment and the committee shall produce a written report concerning each alleged Charter violation with a copy of such notice uh a copy of such report provided to the

complaint correct okay and then subsection D all Charter grievances notices and reports will become public record maintained by the city CL correct that's the motion yes I understand removing the time frame yes but I'm just going to say it suppose the committee decides they don't want take it up oh it's another chter violation isn't it I I don't know what but I I there should be some time frame in there I

think we could put within a reasonable time within a reasonable amount of time but in a timely manner is a favorite lawyer's phrase all right so let me let a lawyer's phrase is timely manner days no we don't even want to do 60 days in a timely in a in a timely manner somewhere

put okay there public they're a public body so you could go to their meetings and indicate that you think that they should adopt some time frames all right so within a reasonable time period upon receiving a written complaint of Charter violation the committee shall schedule a meeting date to discuss such violation sounds great that's better than leaving it completely there we go any further discussion all

in favor I I and the motion unanimously passes with the amendments to 914 and uh six s and any further discussion I'm following the agenda any further disc discussion about our Charter draft or report anybody is there anything at all no okay seeing none um our next scheduled meetings are June 10th June 24th and July 29 7:29 I reserved this room I am going to I did inquire about how to have

a public hearing I was informed that the Old Charter doesn't say we have to publicize so June 10th and June 24th are going to be public hearings in this room at 5:00 pm on the drafts I will make sure it publicizes this final draft report and final draft Charter and June 10th June 24th public hearings can I can I make a recommendation absolutely that the um the clerk prints them out for us and we

all have them printed and maybe some I will make a recommendation and we do uh if if somebody gives me um if I send the pad around you give me an address I'll mail the hard copies okay okay all right can I have a piece of paper um I will ask the clerk to make nine copies and I will have them um I'll have them mailed so you could if you could illegibly too uh

write your uh name uh where you want me to mail that be your office or Clubhouse or Pi up you'll pick yours up all right my friend uh is there is there a motion toour motion to Second get that quick enough and and all in favor I I okay