The Fall River City Council Committee on Ordinances & Legislation convened on May 3, 2022, with Councilors Jacodine (Chair), Dion, and Reposo present. Councilors Lee and Kilby were absent. The committee began by approving the minutes from February 8th and March 1st, 2022, both motions passing unanimously. They then unanimously approved a proposed ordinance for traffic handicap parking, including an emergency preamble, and another proposed ordinance for miscellaneous traffic changes, which covered stop sign intersections, one-way streets, 30-minute parking, and handicap spot removals.
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will you please call the roll here council lee counselor here uh counselor kilby is not going to be able to make it tonight he did have a um business commitment that he had to attend to um and then counselor lee was feeling under the weather so uh to be on the safe side he's not going to be here as well pursuant to the open meeting law any person may make an audio or video
1:16recording of this public meeting or may transmit the meeting through any medium attendees are therefore advised that such recordings or transmissions are being made whether perceived or unperceived by those present and are deemed acknowledgeable and permissible first item on the agenda is citizen input anybody from the community would like to speak hearing none item number two is minutes from february 8th 2022.
1:44motion to approve motion to approve was made by council repositories second by councillor dion discussion hearing none all those in favor aye opposed so voted motion carries item number three is are the minutes from march 1st 2022 motion to approve second motion was made by council of proposals second by council of dion discussion hearing none all those in favor aye opposed so voted motion carries unanimously
2:10item number four proposed ordinance traffic handicap parking uh referred to the council on march 22 2022 or i'm sorry the u.s committee and on april 12 2022 discussion motion tool we need a motion emergency preamble for the handicap i would make the uh motion for emergency preamble a second uh emergency uh motion for emergency preamble was made by council dion seconded by council raposo uh roll call
2:46i mean if you preamble counsel again yes council kilby council lee councillor foso yes chicago yes motion to adopt motion to adopt second motion to adopt the uh handicap was made uh handicapped spots was made by councillor dion second by council proposal discussion hearing none all those in favor aye opposed so voted motion carry carries unanimously item number five is proposed ordinance for traffic miscellaneous
3:19uh referred march 22nd and then april 12th we have some uh stop sign intersections designated one-way streets 30-minute parking in handicap um spots to be removed any discussion no do you need a uh emergency preamble for this as well no that's just removal just removal yep um i'll make the motion to approve motion to approve was made by council dean second second by council proposal
3:50discussion hearing none all those in favor aye aye opposed motion carries unanimously item number six is the proposed ordinance for water and sewer rates at this time i'll ask the administration to come down as the members of the committee are aware the budget was passed at the last council meeting the rates were included in the the budget presentation i'll turn it over to director furlin uh to discuss the the
4:21rate increases but there is an eight cent increase in both water and sewer um i believe yes that is correct thank you very much councillors uh as we uh heard last week um the sewer division budget uh and the water division budget were presented to the council those did go through council were and were approved uh tonight in front of you you have the rates that accompany those uh those
4:50uh budgets to be able to support them the sewer rate uh is in the amount of five dollars and 75 cents per ccf uh that's the proposed rate uh stormwater does not change so the sewer rate is increased eight cents uh per ccf for the rate uh for the average for the rate on the sewer um that's for an average household four dollars and 24 cents per year increase within the water division
5:27uh the proposal rate is 3.57 cents per ccf uh that is an 8 cent increase from the prior year again that is a 4.24 increase to the average household per year the total impact a customer between the water increase the sewer increase is an increase of eight dollars and 48 cents per year any discussion council proposal just the clarification on define the average household so the average household is based off of
6:0753 ccfs per a year usage and that's talking for an average household so that could be a single family house or one unit of a multi-family thank you that is something that comes up year after year in the past i've done a sampling of uh a sample set of residents uh throughout the city um last year i used a sample set of 20. this year i expanded it and i went to all of our
6:39eight family and below residential units so that would be single-family all the way up to eight families pulled all their usage it was over 16 000 accounts and that's what they came that's what the average came up with i wanted to check to make sure that that usage was still the average for our customers and when was that right that calculation was run probably about two months ago i believe
7:04i have it right in here the full calculation
7:23so average household we used a number of accounts within the immune system that we pulled was uh 16 084 accounts the total number of units that that accredited to was 31 592 units breaking that down with their usage from the prior from the calendar year 2021 the actual consumption the actual calculation came out to 50.69 uh ccfs so what we use to calculate the average household is a little bit higher than
8:08the actual calculated i yield thank you any further discussion it comes with diane yeah um and if i remember correctly average household is two and a half people correct uh that's national average based on the census but that can be looked up on the census okay the only comment that i have is um as you know i've been an advocate for opera funding for sewer and water infrastructure
8:34i don't feel sufficient monies have been utilized for this purpose i feel like more money is going to everything else um we all know that we can't immediately um give anybody any relief right now but if we were to be able to make this investment future rate increases may not necessarily need to happen or would be at a reduced amount and because i'm still heavily advocating for the opera funding to help with this
9:07water and sewer infrastructure we all know that there's more you know new projects coming down the road that there's more work than you can even get done as expediently as you'd like to to get it done so and for that reason um i'm gonna say no again because i'm not seeing that uh i'm just not seeing the funding i'm not seeing that being dedicated to something i strongly believe it should be
9:34dedicated to with that i yield thank you any further discussion is there a motion motion to approve there's a motion to approve by council reposa is there a now second has chair discussion hearing none mental clerk we call the roll so this would be to pass the proposal through first reading right so council dion no how's the kilby council lee council raposo yes jacodine yes motion passes
10:08thank you very much coachless thank you have a good day item number seven is a proposed ordinance on compost recycling uh this was tabled on july 26 2021 is there a motion to lift from the table motion motion made by council repository councilman dion all those in favor aye aye opposed so voted motion carries um i don't know if you want do we need anybody from the administration to come down so the ordinance that was
10:32before us uh looked like there was just some corrections or changes that were suggested by kp and those have been incorporated into the ordinance so i don't know if members have any discussion no questions miss demny the only comment that i would make is at the last meeting when this was tabled um it was council ferrero who suggested it be tabled because counselor lee who basically was behind this composting um
11:05ordinance wasn't here to be able to vote on it and that's basically the reason why it was tabled at that time well i can i'm just at that point um when council lee did send it out he was just asking whether or not if i thought there might be an issue passing it so i think he's comfortable enough he's looking to get it passed um so that's just from my standpoint and then if he does
11:26have any issues if it goes to full council obviously he'll have an opportunity okay with that i yield any other discussion no do you do you want to add anything no not good cause okay um so is there a motion i would make a motion to approve motion to approve was made by council diana second second second by council raposo discussion hearing none all those in favor aye opposed so voted motion carries
11:54thank you for coming down no thank you for having us i'm sure i'll make sure mr aiken doesn't uh charge you for the uh the words all right we'll pay you for your time item number eight is a resolution uh to consider combining the historical commission uh with the four of a historic district commission this was tabled uh back in february fourth two thousand twenty one zero motion to lift from the table
12:19second motion was made by council dion seconded by council reposa all those in favor aye opposed so voter motion carries a discussion yeah the only comment again that i would make is i think this is this is a no-brainer and something that people have been waiting for for years and i think it's going to enhance as opposed to i think it's just going to enhance um what you know what their mission is
12:46and and what the commissions try to do i think they've been waiting a very long time for this with that i'll yield perfect questions no um do you folks want to say a few words or are you comfortable with the ordinance i know um attorney rumsey was in communication with i think you or both of you okay all right so um do you know he was sorry so i know i'm sorry i was talking
13:20to seth he should be here volunteering okay um i know that he was uh actually being back now so if we just give him a minute i think you should apologize for that no that's fine so if you folks don't mind what we'll do is we'll just bypass this come back to it and uh because i know attorney ramsey is going to be here so he'll have the ordinance so we can kind
13:39of really speak to it um and then we can take the vote then thank you all right thank you so if there's no objections we'll move on to item number nine um resolution committee on ordinance and legislation convened to discuss unregistered motorbikes traveling on city streets this was adopted as amended on april 12 2022 so i'll ask the chief in the administration to come down so we can
14:04have some discussion on the recommended ordinance
14:24good evening good evening so i know i've had the opportunity to uh meet with the administration and the uh the chief to discuss their proposed ordinance and i think i brought it up when the resolution came before us in full council uh the chief was pulling some ordinances from providence boston and taunton um and there was some discussion in terms of what he liked and didn't like so i know they were going to compile
14:47a recommended ordinance so i don't know i think there was a draft ordinance that was that was submitted for us to uh talk through so i don't know if you folks have that we can so i don't uh have that unfortunately attorney ramsey should be here in a minute um i can just briefly um sort of go through the process uh given uh the resolution i believe it was introduced by councilor pereira some time ago
15:13and based upon that we had several meetings where we looked at the taunton ordinance which has been a very pretty successful ordinance and one of the more recent ones that's been put together providence is has a slightly different take because they um one it's a different state and two they're very aggressive about grabbing the vehicles destroying some of the vehicles and i think there's some question as to
15:40whether the issues that providence is trying to combat with their ordinance are the same as with the issues here in the city of fall river um and i think that uh it seems like with their ordinance they're much more aggressive much more uh sort of police proactive uh in part because there is a real public safety issue that that rises more above just um i don't want to say a nuisance as if
16:03we're dismissing the importance of it it's very important but it is a true active public safety issue there and here i don't think it's it's at that level yet thankfully um so with regard to boston's ordinance that is probably the strictest it only allows one unregistered atv recreational vehicle on a person's property in plain view whereas taunton allows for and so we tried to using guidance from chief gavin
16:36and what he's aware of with regard to the interactions they've had with with atv's reckless use of atvs and unregistered atvs on city streets we tried to sort of create a hybrid ordinance that then the this committee could kind of chip away at uh or add to as the case may be um i'm not sure he's probably going to run out of stuff to say before attorney rumsey gets here so i may have to turn
17:03it over to chief gavin you get a fair warning um but uh i will say that um one of the things that we we've kicked around is that there are statutes state statutes in place that do address some of these issues and i will say that with regard to the definition of a motor vehicle largely it's based upon engine size and maximum speed and so if you look at dirt bikes atvs both trikes and four-wheelers
17:36most of those could fall into that definition based upon engine size it's really mopeds and maybe segways that you'd have a problem with but i don't think that the segways are the ones that are causing terror on the streets um if they were i'd almost love to see that but the the thing about the the vehicles that actually have the capacity to quickly get away and elude police those
18:00are the ones that would fall into the definition of having a large enough engine and being fast enough so um that might be off the hook g um so with regard to uh one of the things we're talking about is the statutes um negligent operation of a motor vehicle and um reckless operation a motor vehicle those are felonies that actually come with loss of license for up to a year can
18:25come with the loss of the vehicle and actually go on your criminal record um so we sort of looked at this as almost a way to give the police a a lesser penalty so the 18 year old kid you know who does this stupidly doesn't have his life destroyed because he's you know hot rodding with his motorbike or his dad's motorbike and you don't subject a family to thousands and thousands of thousands
18:46of dollars in fines and legal fees trying to combat a felony when what we're really trying to do is is address a public safety issue that maybe doesn't rise to that level so with that i'll turn it over to attorney rumsey and chief govind thanks you because you know the administrator was running out of words to say he was going to turn it over to the chief so my apologies um
19:06well i don't want to repeat too much because i'm not sure exactly what uh mr aiken had to say but you know we've discussed with the administration chief of police the mayor at least one city councilor that i'm aware of just trying to figure out you know put everything on the board to see what options are out there i'm not sure that all the options that we've discussed or are something that we can implement but
19:27it's at least upward discussion we can talk about it and i can see if it can fit legally whether it's constitutional that we can do it or not so with that how do you want to approach it i mean so the only thing i've said the only the only thing i've said so far is that um we created a hybrid ordinance that had everything in it with the intent of um talking through it with uh the
19:51committee to chop it down and to shape it however they want and that we were thinking of this as a way to give the police another tool that might be lesser in severity than the felony tools that already exist that would accomplish essentially the same end um and that's pretty much where we ended yeah so if we could just based on what we had talked about just if we have a
20:13copy of the ordinance or just some talking points of the ordinance just to highlight uh so we can just begin discussions and then move forward with you know i i think because i think we're all on the same page but it's it's how detailed do we want and what which do we want to implement in terms of um some of the items in the ordinance you know are we limiting it to just one
20:35you know um atv or recreational vehicle are we um going to be destroying vehicles things of that nature i think those are the conversations that need to be added makes sense just just so you know um this is a list of what the atv rules are all 50 states i haven't read each and every single state but uh massachusetts seems to be one of if not the most comprehensive so the state law is already pretty significant
21:03so there's not a whole lot of holes to fill um but let's take through i mean seth was kind enough to kind of put together a list of all things all options here so if i can just go through it slowly here let's see talk about definitions registration okay so massachusetts requires registration and i think everybody needs to understand that these i'll just use atvs but we're talking all
21:28sorts of different recreational vehicles but atvs are not permitted on public ways in the state of massachusetts so keep in mind everybody that you see out there they're already breaking the law there's already a law that requires them to stop when a police officer requesting the stop they're supposed to have the registration handy uh they have to give their obviously their their real name
21:49so there's numerous violations just by speeding away from the police so before before we move on can we just stay on that point so from a police department standpoint what are we running what issues are we running into so when we're trying to to have them pull over they're are they taking off we're not following them sure and that's that's uh essentially that's correct and when we've tried to
22:10stop these vehicles in the past they've taken off or what they've done is they've they've done something that the police office officer has determined to be dangerous and by our policy once that situation happens more likely than not the sergeant who's involved in this pursuit is going to call it off immediately so that's where we end and then some people are baiting us to try to chase
22:34them but obviously they're aware of our situation as well so part of this is you know we just need to try to develop some more tools uh some different ways we can combat it and the other thing is we have to be a little bit outside the box of how are we going to try to catch these people ultimately and the ultimate goal obviously is to avoid the dangerous pursuits similar to
22:56what we've seen on the news with providence and things of that nature correct so we don't want to inflame uh we don't have the same situation as in providence i think springfield also had a serious issue so we don't want to get into a situation where we're flaming it we're encouraging it but we do want to address it at some point okay all right so the first thing on this list here is
23:18whether we allow unregistered vehicles on personal property and i guess the the best way to compare it is a lot of people don't know this but your your motor vehicle your car you're not supposed to have in your own driveway even though it's not a public way if it's not properly registered so you know just with atvs they're supposed to register as well so some communities have instituted a regulation that says
23:43no more than three or four or something along those lines and what's the what's the ordinance now one unregistered in in city per ordinance motor vehicle so i mean for this one i'm not sure this is going to solve the problem no matter what we have here um you know if somebody who lived in you know a rural part of the the city had 10 of them in their property and you know
24:12their their buddies came from out of town and they wrote them on their own property nobody would really care so i mean it's something to consider i guess but i'm not sure this one's going to solve the problem um going down to so just before just before we um get into so i guess what's what's the recommendation or what are we looking to do in terms of i guess we're going to put a
24:35number on the limit of more of bikes that are either unregistered well i guess if they're registered that they're fine so unregistered vehicle bikes right i believe uh correct me if i'm wrong counselor at some point you can decide whether you want to have one or four and whether you want to allow them to have them either on their property or within boston they've given them the ability to have
24:58the same number within a four world contained building so you know i think in time it's more and what we're looking for is more outside that four walled building i think i think talking to attorney rumsey we may end up if we're trying to limit people's ownership of a product within a garage or under their ownership we may run into some issues later on down down the line we want to correct the problem but we
25:22certainly don't want to steer ourselves into a subsequent lawsuit later on either right so so just the enforcement piece and the legality of limiting how how much they can have on their property i guess are we looking to go down that road though to to have at least a number and what is i guess what is that comfortable number that i mean but personally i don't know that it's going
25:45to matter i mean i'm not sure that we even need this provision i know other people may disagree with me i don't it's obviously not going to help any enforcement issues that we the issues we currently have um you know there's there are exceptions to the registration so if you're racing or anything else and you imagine the people that are racing the ones are going to have uh you know under sanctioned races
26:07uh they're gonna have probably more than three or four anyway um you know it's people who have them on their own property are not the problems so i'm not sure we even need this portion in there yeah so i guess i don't i don't disagree and i i'm going into the enforcement piece once we get there is how do we how do we enforce you know with the the vehicles but i also trying to figure out
26:31you know trying to do the pros and cons in terms of how do we give this ordinance the teeth that you folks need to really kind of police and address some of these issues and maybe to you know to the attorney's point this this probably isn't one worth for a whole lot of discussion but the part of the policy i believe when talking about numbers uh of recreational vehicles on person's
26:51property what happens is you may have a group that's riding together and they take off and they end up on that same property or they're hiding out in a particular garage that this is where they're being stored it could be eight to ten bikes they're all pertaining to this group we go there for one or two because we see something now we have all these others that are sitting there do we take them do we not
27:12or were they allowed to be there so there may be a situation where we are legally enforcing the law seizing a unregistered an unregistered dirt bike or atv and it may be in the presence in that same building of 10 to 12 others that's the potential that we're looking at okay hypothetically if there's a hot pursuit the police are going to be able to go into the property and and and do what needs to be done
27:39um is it possible that this provision is other communities because what if the law enforcement loses sight of them for a certain period of time and then you know within a mile they see you know eight dirt bikes on uh personal property well we probably know what happened there um you know i i think that may be the reason why sometimes this exists isn't entirely you know is i think you'd articulate
28:05a hot pursuit without it but you know if if we need it in there if the legislative body wants in there we can figure out a way to put it in there i guess and i can check to see the legality of it i do have some concerns right now but i haven't thoroughly researched it so it would there also be a way to tie it to um obviously as opposed to you know if
28:25to your point if if i'm storing a recreational vehicle on my property and i'm not using it in the street illegally we're not targeting myself but if andrew decides that he wants to go ride his vehicle and he wants to pull into somebody's meet up with his friends in somebody else's property you've got you know four to five or eight or ten vehicles you're looking to be able to confiscate that so
28:49is there a way to to tie it to the legal operation in the road which will then if there are any any and all unregistered vehicles at that point on any given property would be seized do you know what i'm saying so so tying it to the actual illegal use on on a street as opposed to just on a property so we're not violating property rights and i don't know that we
29:12can do that i certainly understand your point i think sometimes i think if we over convolute the issue yeah the more difficult we make it the more complicated we make it the dictate of the street office is going to be not to enforce it so if it is something that it's seen as uh overly confusing i would suggest that we move on because i know what's gonna happen eventually in
29:33the street it'll be hey what's this rule regarding this and then somebody's gonna throw up their hands and they're gonna take whatever bike that they're dealing with and then they'll move on if i may so i look at it as more of an investigatory tool you might recall several years ago maybe four years ago there was an incident in front of the walmart and these were motorcycles not atv's but but it was a
29:53number of guys riding together um an older gentleman in his vehicle hit one by mistake they surrounded him and an off-duty police officer intervened it turned into quite a quite a thing those v those motorcycles were ultimately found because people gave descriptions of them and then police found the motorcycles later they didn't actually stop them or track them down right and i think in this particular
30:16situation when police are electing to not pursue atvs that are recklessly dry doing wheelies and side wheelies and whatever else on the street they may come away more often than not with a description of the vehicle if you then have a report from a neighbor or report from minimum housing of a number of vehicles one of which may match that description you now have at least the basis for a
30:40threshold inquiry maybe not a warrant but certainly a threshold inquiry to investigate on that property based upon the presence of unregistered or multiple vehicles in violation of the ordinance so i think it gives the police another tool that isn't without value is there any discussion on this move on okay we can move on okay um another section some communities have have something along property on another
31:09i'll just read it to you no person shall operate maintain or possess a recreational vehicle upon the property of another without written permission of the landowner of that person for purposes of the subsection property of another shall include any property owned or leased by the city including any city public school property playgrounds parks or conservation areas or any land in which the city holds any conservation
31:30restriction um once again i'm not i mean i'm not sure if this is really going to um enact it or not whether it's going to help our problem in the city so i mean it's it's up for discussion if you want to talk about i'm not sure that's really necessary for this ordinance but ultimately it's another tool it's an ordinance an audience will be assigned a fine and i believe the fine
32:01right now is 150 at the low end for the criminal for what's in 90 b i know we were looking at the proposed ordinance that we're looking at 300 fine also with the possibility of towing and then there was some further i don't want to get in front of you here counselor but with some other restrictions about paying that fine and where we go from there i mean i'm guessing here but you're talking
32:26about written permission from the landowner i guess i can imagine where there's some kind of pursuit and they're on somebody's property and you know the police arrive and the landowner says no no you know they're allowed there's no written permission at that time so i guess it's you know and technically violating the the letter of the law but once again we're getting the property rights and i'm not
32:48i'm not sure that this will is legally permissible i'm happy to look into it that's what this you know body wants to wants me to look into but i'm not sure that's really required here okay comes with diane yeah i guess my question was going to be would that give the police the authority to to remove that vehicle from the property because they don't have the consent of the owner um
33:17that would be number one number two if there is written permission and the owner is giving consent what legal ramifications are there for that property owner at that point um in terms of the other person's actions does that somehow carry over to to the property owner correct so number one um there are other restrictions that so this is a kind of a moving piece if you will so when we're
33:43taking it single line by single line it might not make much sense but i also believe when we uh talked about this uh particular piece that the landowner would also have to have a tract of land equal to two and a half acres of land we don't want somebody who's on one of our small side streets saying no i gave the written permission to be in our backyard 25 feet away from the
34:04neighbor's house doing donuts and creating their own little dirt track so if there is a violation of ordinance one of the penalties possibly the towing and then it's tied to those other fines and fees along with the tow so essentially if there's a minimum amount of acreage in part does the consent really matter or not matter if they're on a parcel that isn't large enough anyways it would
34:33have to still comply if it's not their land that uh they would have to comply with all the pieces of the ordinance they have the ability to ride legally in some areas of the state forest in certain parts of massachusetts uh there is areas where they can do it legally in tracks in rhode island uh and anytime there's a sanctioned bike race that involves dirt bikes or atvs that could be promulgated by any
34:58municipality they certainly have the ability to ride there so do you feel that that would be something that would be beneficial to you if if it you know well i think when we took when we looked at the other ordinances we tried to be as inclusive as possible could this possibly be a situation we're facing at some point in the future and we went with the bigger bite if you will
35:22we we went through all this now i agree with attorney rumsey some of these are not individually going to solve our problems but it is another hurdle for people to go over as to where they're going to ride freely and legally okay thank you thank you we've been playing devil's advocate on this for a while trying to debate it back and forth and you know this body might have other ideas that we
35:46haven't thought of yet so which is why we're kind of presenting maybe an over-inclusive amount of potential ordinances because we don't want to miss anything okay i think i think even though we're having discussion i think that's healthy but i also would suggest that at some point you get a copy of the all the uh pieces and then when you actually read it i think you'll be able to absorb
36:07how many of the different pieces fit together yeah so it becomes a whole as as opposed to just within slicing here and then it's hard to put it together without knowing the full scope yep yeah and if i haven't made it clear i mean the concern with a and b the legal concerns are just with the property rights they're very similar as far as the legal analysis but going down to the the next section
36:30which is something much more in favor of this it's entitled hazardous operation and what this attempts to do is prevent trick trick riding stunt riding wheelies and it defines all sorts of what dangerous operation entails i think this would play into it would be in addition to the state statute it's something more specific to just fall river and i i don't see any issue with that but if
36:59anybody want to discuss it that's something we could maybe have a progressive fine it would be in addition to any kind of state remedies that already exist discussion on that no okay this would include also uh having more than one rider when there's not there's a seat for just one you know there's a whole definition of dangerous uh hazardous operation so is the idea on this uh correct it's
37:29some some bigger teeth regarding of the fine amount and then the potential for any violation for the towing and then the surcharges from there so what do we currently do in terms of when let's let's assume for a second that's uh when an officer puts the lights on to pull somebody over they they stop and and there's two individuals and there's only one seat what's i guess what's the action that occurs at
37:57that point that's a good question because that's actually what i want to bring up too is the way it's written right now you said we just threw everything on there i think it makes more sense to have the penalty for each infraction included under that subsection because we may want to have a different penalty for you know you know riding wheelies down the street that we will for any other infraction so
38:17i would probably even even if it's the same i would include it on each one potentially and that way you could easy to change as well okay so what do we what do we currently do again assuming they stop if if they were to get stopped we'd be charging him under uh chapter 90 b the issue ultimately is it goes to to a judge and whether they believe that's a serious issue or not
38:43um that's going to be where it gets played out they can go right back to the tow company pay the storage and fee and then they're out again um so with this one you would obviously again the whole remedy would be at that point you would be towing um fine correct whatever the fine schedule comes out to be and then um and i guess i i got the cleft notes version in advance so potentially
39:11having to also trailer out there so correct so part of this and we're going to go back into this we're thin slicing these pieces when you take it as a whole you'll see there's another subsection talking about the tow company where um it'll have to the fines will have to be paid the corp fees will have to be paid the towing storage fee will have to be paid and prior to removal the owner will have
39:34to then produce an ability to legally take the atv or the recreational vehicle from that site so they'd either have to have a truck that would fit the the atv or recreational vehicle and or a trailer that would make a little bit a little bit more difficult for someone who's um you know just joyriding and you know doing this illegally to invest the money into this project unless they're really serious about it
40:01but i don't think those are the people that we have an issue with okay yeah we don't want something so draconian that if it were just an innocent so to speak teenager who just happened to bring it on the street for a quick second and got pulled over and complied and immediately pulled over you know should be there should be a fine in place and i think registration is absolutely necessary because
40:24you know you can make the argument that if you're just on your own backyard property and it never is seen by the public you know the argument's well why do i need to register it but once you're on the street uh i think to get it back it needs to be registered and there should be a fine you know the question is you know you know how what what kind of fine and
40:43do we want for the first offense as opposed to second and third and you know i think as i said i think we should take them individually um for hazardous operation might be different from some of the other infractions but right now the way this is you know it's potentially up to a 300 fine for the first violation 500 for future um i mean that might be a little bit high for the first infraction in my
41:10opinion but as i said it's do you want a dirt bike i was just curious i don't think it's that high i think this is i think this is what other towns are charging they're serious about it and i think uh i i think the difference is you know most of us don't live out in the reservation area but i have lived in areas more similar where dirt bikes are everywhere i've
41:31ridden numerous dirt bikes on personal property and you know at an extremely young age and i don't want to have what maybe somebody who lives right here on south main street thinks is right or wrong be the same rules as they apply for on the reservation we have to kind of look at fall river as an entire community not just the more urban part of fall river sure that's what i'm
41:51worried about and we and we did talk about this i mean we're not necessitating officers uh to uh use the language of must and shall i mean this is where real police work happens where we're talking about the discretion of a police officer and handling these matters and good police officers good community police officers and neighborhoods are going to know how to handle this uh for these
42:13situations but in reality you know it's really not what's scaring people it's not what we are really looking at in in the community right now so just in terms of the 90 b right that's what you said the violation would be currently um so there's a citation attached to it now so would we so i'm just trying i'm just trying to understand based on the fine that we want to implement now and how that
42:38relates to the 90 b so is there a double double fine or yeah so um so chapter 90 is is motor vehicles right so if somebody's charged with oui they're charging under chapter 90. there's a parallel statute chapter 90 b tractor 90v is all boats recreational vehicles snow vehicles things like that and so the second half of 90b section 20 actually defines recreational vehicle and then 21 through
43:0650 or something like that is all recreational vehicle things so there is a between 250 and 1 000 fine for certain recreational vehicle associated offenses but they're not really enumerated as specifically as the reckless operation that we talked about it's it's it's not nearly as either potentially damaging as a 90 violation and not nearly as specific as the other equivalent recreational vehicle statutes
43:36that we found in time providence boston so it's kind of a hole yeah you know that that helps because it was just in my mind i'm i'm knowing that we've got some fines in in chapter 90 right whether it's 90b or wherever we're going with this um and then trying to implement it here so this would be in place of and give you more you can point to the ordinance actually
43:54give a fine so you're not really referencing 90 b um if there is a obviously other violations with 90 b you would also give those um citations or well i think for the most part um most officers are either going to go one way or the other and i think more likely than not if we're finding out that we're not getting the luck in the courts that we we're hoping to
44:14um or if we want to go to a situation where we feel this is this is what's going to take care of this issue which is hitting them with a steep refine and also going along with the issues of getting your vehicle or your recreational vehicle back from the tow company that's probably going to be i think more likely of a solution to the problem than going the other way
44:36plus 90 b is is generally enforced by the amount the state environmental police much more often than than regular police or state police so there's going to be a familiarity with 90 and a lot of police officers may not see an option within 90 to cite these guys for what they're doing right i think it you know even though attorney ramsey's point is very well taken that we need to be a little
44:59more judicious about how we're doing it um and mindful about what we add in there um a statute specific to recreational vehicles makes sense because of the the sort of uniqueness of 90b okay it comes to damn yeah i guess just to put this in very very simple terms um it's all applicable only to people who are breaking the law if you're riding on somebody's personal property registered or not registered
45:29this isn't it's not going to come into play if you're properly loading your vehicle into a truck and and transporting it to some place where you're allowed to use it there's no harm no foul so i mean to me if you don't have a fine that to a certain extent hurts i don't think it's going to accomplish much um and i guess that would just be my only comments in regard to that where are we
45:58okay what's the next section next section flammable fluid is what it's entitled right now but in essence it's it's making it a violation for and this has happened in other communities for gas stations to allow a recreational vehicle to fill up at the gas station the idea behind it is that gas stations and chief galvin can probably explain this better than i am because he explained it very well to me but you
46:33know they already have an obligation to make sure that it's an appropriate receptacle so i don't know if you notice but and i don't notice in other states but i do notice in massachusetts that you know when sometimes you run your credit card you have to wait for the cashier to approve it and i guess the idea is they look to make sure you have one of the red receptacles or a vehicle and you're not
46:54putting gas into a stop and shop grocery bag which i've seen on videos before so the idea i think stems from that is we already put some obligations on the gas station and this is just one more because clearly these none of these vehicles are supposed to be on public ways so if they fill up they're clearly going to write on a public way you know so i get it i understand it i
47:19i do want to at least articulate i think this is different in the sense of having a proper receptacle is more of a public safety issue and i you know there's at least a suggestion that this is more of an enforcement issue and it should be left to the police as as opposed to the gas station that tended to use your behind a cash register behind glass and don't really have the the means or ability to
47:45enforce these this ordinance but that's what's up for discussion council raposo excuse me i guess my only question is to that is what what is the penalty if a gas station were to allow a illegal vehicle to be filled up what happens then some have been as high as a thousand dollars for a first fine and 2500 for a second fine i don't know whether that's been challenged yet i imagine once those fines actually happen
48:12they will be challenged whether it's by the aclu or somebody else that's my concern and i personally have a problem with writing a law to scare people into compliance when it's not enforceable i mean we really shouldn't have the laws unless they are legal and enforceable thank you just so along those those lines is it was it the expectation with this to i mean it's again it's another tool in the toolbox but how
48:43and again i anything that we draft right and i want to say this i want to clarify my comments anything we draft should be enforced so uh what are we looking to do in terms of enforcement on this though is it truly um you know sting operations with regards to you know gas stations as to whether or not you know we're rolling up with illegal vehicles and having those filled or canisters
49:05are we going to go that far with it or is it really just again to try to if we know that there's you know they're going to the shell gas station on you know rodman and plymouth and that's where they're constantly going uh we need to really kind of type it down and i think you know to the to attorney ramsey's point that obviously if he has an issue with uh constitutionality then obviously
49:26we'll back off this is what other communities are doing i think it's another tool number one it's making it more difficult for these riders to first off they're they're illegal already being on a city street i don't think it's that difficult to discern you know an atv or a dirt bike versus other items out there i think when we get to motorized bicycles mopeds limited use motorcycles then we're
49:51getting into some really difficult decisions but looking outside your window and seeing an atv there you can decide not to allow that person to pump you need to go somewhere else okay me personally i can go either way i think if we think it's it's going to be challenged in court and we don't have a good leg to stand on i'd say pull it and the only reason i say that is because there's an
50:16alternative method right i mean they just go buy a red canister and go to the gas station get gas and then bring it back to their you know their location so it doesn't really prevent it but i can see what you're saying like the overall philosophy is just to make it as difficult as possible for these people to operate yeah okay in the grand scheme of things has that been an issue thus far of
50:38illegal vehicles being filled at gas stations well it's it's in and of itself i mean here we here we go again with thin slicing right yeah in and of itself it's a small piece but this is the paper cut this is no matter what you do here we're going to try to enforce everything against you to make it as difficult as possible for you to operate on the city street fight
51:02thank you any of the discussions on that section no okay next section is penalties and this is non-gas station penalties um what's written down right now but clearly up for discussion is the first fine of 300.
51:22second subsequent of 500.
51:25the gasoline fine for the gas stations is starts at a thousand second and subsequent 2500.
51:35i think we should probably start with the discussion of just the operator fines so i i guess when we had our conversation my my only response was that just being in c-conc i know we have a little a little bit of a different process where we actually have to submit uh bylaws to the ag's office so they typically when we stop putting in you know fines of a hundred or three hundred
51:58dollars they'll always come back and say no there's a fine schedule that we should be following so the question would be where are we in terms of the fine schedules that we know uh massachusetts general law would require and i guess i was a little surprised to hear some of the fines with uh 90b being i think you said 200 or so they're they're pretty significant 250 up to a thousand yeah raise the
52:21range and and they do it similar to a 90 schedule where it's sort of at the discretion of the prosecutor to recommend a fine but there's not a first is this second is this that's present with like um unlicensed operation a motor vehicle that sort of thing but uh once you get to like a negligent operation reckless operation it's a range and the range under 90b the thing that is closest to this is 250
52:47to a thousand okay so it's not like we're not starting at 50 for the first offense and we're asking to be at 300 so we're we're within a happy range of what we're seeing in other statutes okay yeah and independently it fits right in with what the state statute has the question i guess i have is is this going to be on top of so for example you know if you're riding a wheelie down
53:10south main street you can get hit with the 90b fine of 250 and you could also get hit with potentially this ordinance fine of an additional called a hundred dollars i think 100 is much more reasonable if you're getting hit with the 250 just for having an unregistered atv on a public way if you're doing it separately you know then then obviously i think the higher fine may be uh appropriate
53:34but it sounds to me like these are going to be kind of add-ons is that not the case no you think it's going to be one of the other correct okay then i probably would have to add something there that maybe even addresses that because i'd be worried about if it's a you know if we have a fine say called 250 and there's still the ability of being fined another 250 for under 190b
53:56and maybe i could articulate you know either or so i guess based on that then we would want one fine schedule as opposed to individuals right so because i think if you get into sections they may unless you put language in there you know officers may interpret like when you start getting into hazard operation right you've got somebody doing a wheelie you've got to find just say 200 and then you've got a legal
54:20operation of i mean operation of a legal vehicle then you've got to find there so then you start adding it up and you're well over a thousand dollars if it's misinterpreted sure yeah right we don't want to make sure well usually what we do whenever we have this and it's a process that we're already going for with 9db not waiting for this to come out we're already putting out our training bolts in regards to 90b
54:44we'll be doing the same thing here so we'll put both things together once there's a vote on the audience yeah but i was talking 90b alone and maybe i was just confusing it uh corporation council was suggesting that we put the fines in each section break it down in each section you know because i think he was saying that if when you get to the hazardous operation you could potentially have different
55:05fines for either doing a wheelie or having um two two people on a bike that only has one i guess if we start doing that my concern would be that you would think that you could potentially hit them 250 for each section of the ordinance i guess i would just want to make sure that we're clear on that because i think that bt for legality no i i'll go through it and make sure
55:31that it fits i mean that's something easy enough to do it sounds like 90b enforcement and the courts will probably happen once you hit the point of negligent operation because that has some real teeth you know lose your license for a year you know i i do agree and understand we've talked about this you know if somebody's riding a wheelie down south main you and i may think it's negligent operation but it
55:54probably won't be negligent operation in a court of law and the reason why they ride the wheels is because they feel they can do it safely but anything that does rise to level negligent operation will probably charge with negligent operation in court so in my mind we're looking at more of the fines for i guess things that we want to discourage but haven't necessarily put a specific member of the public at risk
56:21for you know public safety risk more of a nuisance kind of an idea so i can i can i still think just for ease it probably makes sense even if i'm just you know being redundant putting the fines under each section um but i can do that easy enough okay and we just want language to make sure that we know it's a totality and not right each different violation of the the
56:52section of the ordinance is going to get a fine that's all because i don't think that's the intent correct and then is there any discussion question on the uh the gas fines thousand and twenty five hundred okay is that all the sections no um next question is about the chief having enforcement not a problem i don't really think we need to discuss it within impoundment so that's a question i
57:24i would ask that the chief maybe lead the discussion because i'm trying to figure out exactly what the idea is behind the empowerment so empowerment is a separate section so you have enforcement and then empowerment correct um the way it's set up there's a specific paragraph entitled penalties um and then a under a separate paragraph empowerment okay chief do you want to talk about that we're talking about
57:49tow companies right so the tow company now obviously we're going to till the vehicle would give the citation you're going to get the ordinance in the uh assessment the vehicle the opera recreational vehicle will be towed where they'll incur charges for the tow and the storage similar to similar is that still falling down that's some way we always do but here we're going to we're going to require if it's unregistered
58:19and under 90 b for them to get it registered they have have to have proof of ownership which is going to prove difficult for the people i think we're targeting uh they're gonna have to get the registration and then they're also going to have to show proof that they paid the fine and then that once again they're going to have to bring a trailer or they'll have to have a suitable truck to now
58:38legally get the recreational vehicle from their tow yard legally back to their private property so just in terms of that so so obviously the the tow trucks they get a daily fee for storage right so you got the the tow which is set by mgl right they provide administrative fee over to you folks for towing is that correct or no do we not get revenue no no probably probably look at that it's
59:09another revenue um so let's set that aside um so so you got the you got the cost for towing then you got the cost for storage so now the question comes in from my standpoint at what point do we step in and take ownership of these vehicles because then you're going to just have this astronomic accumulation of storage right so like if they'd never decide never to come back um show the total
59:35the tote companies are going to want some type of reimbursement they at some point have a process i'm not sure exactly what uh how it the procedural processes but they end up getting possession of that vehicle or the recreational vehicle becomes their property okay is that something we want to see happen i guess that's the other well we certainly don't want to see them turn around and sell it that's for sure
59:59back to the back to the owner but um you know obviously making sure i mean we can add something in there you know ensuring that i guess making it illegal for them to sell it or maybe we could restrict them in some way counselor to me this is the big piece and this this would be the big piece of the ordinance because you know it's it's hard to make the argument that where
1:00:21the ordinance is is too strong when all you're doing is making them prove that they own it making them get it registered which is required by law anyway pay even assuming it's a reasonable fine and then legally transport it back home because they can't operate on a public way i mean that right there is going to um i think the biggest piece of this ordinance and and frankly i'm not sure we need
1:00:45much else other than this in the hazardous operation section and then it would be my suggestion and just that there's many ways we can go my suggestion is maybe start with those two pieces and then see if more is necessary in the future um you know the the empowerment and hazardous operation clearly um i don't think we're gonna have any legal issues as far as enforcing and acting and then we can kind of see where it
1:01:08takes us but i mean this is the big piece i think questions so in terms of the tow company i mean is it a like 30-day 60-day 90-day because i i don't know what the formula is i think it involves the uh there's a time period and i also believe there's a uh an assessment of the worth of the vehicle as well um i'm not sure there is a an mgl that
1:01:38covers that for uh for towing companies but that's their process i think it's a time and a particular value of that vehicle if if the charges tend to go beyond and as a time period then they go through some type of forfeiture process but i can get clarification for you yeah that would make sense when they tow cars i would think it would be a similar process in terms of retrieving your
1:02:05vehicle and how long they before they can take ownership of your vehicle i would think it would be a similar process correct and and i'm going to be honest with you i don't know the exact process so i will get that for you i'm not sure if that's a civil process that they have to go through if that's something that's already set uh by statute i'll get but i'll get that to you
1:02:25chief do we know what the difference is between you know toning storage fees for atv versus a typical motor vehicle or if there is anything i don't believe there's any difference um in the past motorcycles haven't had a different uh statue i mean it's just you're causing a truck to go out you're causing an operator who's getting hourly wage and you're you're causing them now to place
1:02:48it in their lawn and take up space so so these are going to be significant even without fall rivers action at all i mean once once this vehicle is taken correct oh yeah thanks any further discussion are there any other categories or those no that's those are the categories there okay anything else you want to add so how's the committee want to proceed um i know corporation council had mentioned that obviously
1:03:26um section three and i just my section three i could be off with the numbering but hazardous operation was a big piece uh and then um the last one which was seven impoundment um and then obviously the enforcement piece would would fall in line do you wanna focus on that or do you wanna are we comfortable enough having him go and draft something for all the the sections i think i think for
1:03:49my purposes i think a draft ordinance would be more helpful because as you were saying now you're looking at it as a whole as well and then and then see how everything uh falls into place and fits i would be comfortable with the draft ordinance at this point and then you tweak it beyond that entertaining all those sections correct not just the two important ones correct okay absolutely i agree with you okay so you
1:04:14said a lot better than i did so if we're good with that we'll move forward and do the draft audience uh so the only thing i guess i would ask is how many unregistered vehicles do we want to include so we can just have a number in the components i still have you know you can have 10 unrest vehicles but if you're never operating them illegally why does it matter that's that's the only
1:04:43that's my gray area in this um you know if somebody has 10 acres of land you tell them well you can only have two unregistered vehicles i don't know i have i kind of have a problem with that i don't know why but i do it it just seems to be a sticking point especially again if it's somebody who's always operating legally it's a mute point um so i don't know what
1:05:02what's your opinion on that what do you feel comfortable with because you're the expert on this not well i don't know if i i appreciate your kind words but i don't know if i'd call myself an expert i'm probably no different than anyone here uh when it comes to this and it really does come down to how you personally feel and in providing some of these uh pieces that we were able to
1:05:21look at different audiences and sending it to city hall i didn't even opine about specifically what number on this issue it was it was in most uh this piece was in every single other ordinance that i've seen so everybody included it it's there uh boston has won taunton has four it's something that's been all over the place but the idea of limiting that number has certainly been pretty
1:05:46consistent throughout so what would you say the average number of unregistered is that people seem to be comfortable with then i think i think that's something for all of us to discuss pete and that's and that's why we put it here because yeah so it's it's difficult i mean i i understand you know what you what you're asking me to give you but to give you you know from my opinion versus what i've seen i mean
1:06:08it's all over the place um i'm not really concerned to be honest with you with one or two okay what we're looking at with the situation that we have in the city right now is when you have these gangs of four and six and they're all being stored in one particular warehouse uh they're not on you know their own individual property they're in a garage somewhere those are the ones that we're really thinking about
1:06:32okay so you would so in your opinion to say a maximum of two or maximum of three unregistered on any one piece of property would be adequate i do if it's outside i think i think there's some differences and i spoke with attorney rumsey quite extensively about this idea and boston it's one very strict one with the exception or what the exemption i should say if it's in a garage then it you know it's unlimited
1:07:03as long as you have the space to properly store them but if it's outside in your property open to the viewer the rest of the public then you're only limited to one unregistered vehicle yeah and i guess i'm thinking too though on the other side of that coin is if you're living next door you don't want to see a dozen unmarked vehicles just randomly parked all over the place either so correct which i hadn't thought
1:07:26of that until just now yeah so i guess i would feel comfortable with two or three maximum probably two the more you think about it just very briefly so i think what you just said is the first answer to the question right if the vehicles aren't being used it's just it's kind of an eyesore right especially in close contact the second is uh you know if a vehicle is validly owned
1:07:52it's likely to be registered a vehicle that's stolen or not validly there being hidden away whatever more likely that an unregistered vehicle has some questionable provenance and then finally taxes excise tax right so we're collecting excise tax on registered vehicles if a vehicle is not registered and it's just there there's no revenue that that the you know that the state or the city or who
1:08:16you know wherever you are is realizing on that so there's a cut there's a number of reasons why we want to keep tabs on the vehicles by making sure they're registered and i think the real uh when you talk about the real aficionados people who are really into the sport of dirt bikes or atvs are that's their recreation for the most part you know those are going to be the the people who want to
1:08:38keep their uh vehicles clean they want to keep them safe uh they're going to put them in garages or in some other covering um what we're talking about and i and it's just my personal opinion that the people that are causing people to be fearful on the streets and the people who are doing this stuff uh you know going around cars and causing that type of talk are not that same group i think when you're talking
1:09:02about the people who are storing these unregistered vehicles in backyards those tend to be more likely a higher probability that people were causing these other issues so i think after that discussion i'd be comfortable with two maximum
1:09:25yeah i yield sorry console proposal yeah i think it all goes down to people who are doing it legally and people are not doing doing illegally illegally so people who are doing legally got to do everything they possibly can to make sure like you said you know if they're recreational to follow the letter of the law those who are not or not so that's what we're really trying to target here is those
1:09:47who are you know driving down pleasant street 15 of them down the road and as a motorist you have no choice but to either pull over fear for your life you're going to get hit it almost happened to me a few weeks ago coming down pleasant street and then blowing right out of the street so that's the that's the group we're targeting and that's what we want to stop so correct
1:10:08and you're absolutely right and um just for one i live in the city here and obviously i was here over the week driving around over the weekend and i saw numerous motorcycles in and around the city together up to groups of 10 motorcycles all legal all registered not causing a problem for any motorist it was just business as usual that's not the groups that we're looking at we're looking at
1:10:32these groups that are going out there in small bands and causing these issues yeah i mean i know my gratitude and i think you know when we talked to uh counselor kadeem over this we wanted to include some of these wider pieces of it i think we talked about writing the audits doing it at one time as best we can and so when we looked and did the research so some of these pieces that are coming
1:10:56in may not seem so significant or particular to the uh problem that we're trying to deal with right now they're you know outlying situations that we may deal with and we want to do it all at once if we can yeah and i think that's why it'd be helpful once this is all put together as a draft ordinance to kind of review it piece by piece because i think they're they're going to be run into some
1:11:16situations of interpretation that we won't try to avoid ahead of time so without a yield okay so just to i guess kind of uh reiterate what we were just discussing so unregistered vehicles two macs um i guess if you want to throw in an ex an exception to that if it's stored obviously in a garage or some type of housing unit that's fine um i think on other property i think everybody was
1:11:42good with that two and a half acres uh so we can move forward with that and then obviously the fines as you feel um is adequate and the penalties were good so if we can draft that and then when you folks are ready just let me know and then we can establish the next meeting to discuss this all right any other discussions questions for the administration perfect thank you thank you
1:12:05will that come automatically back here without us making something oh i'm sorry we have a table we got a table i'll make a motion to table it second motion was made by councillor dion seconded by castle proposal all those in favor aye post so voted motion carries uh going back to item number eight uh the resolution considering uh combining the historical commission with the floor of a historic district
1:12:29that was already lifted from the table okay so i drafted this over a year ago where i combined uh there's basically section article two and article four of the historic preservation ordinance it's been sent to the historic commission i think the preservation side as well for review they have made some very minor changes so it's back now i've copies for everybody
1:13:16just by way of background um our historic preservation chapter 38 of our ordinances uh was a little outdated article one it's entitled in general but there's literally nothing on it so there's there's there's no change of article one um i only have one extra copy of the current ordinances written but you can see there's literally nothing on article one article two there's almost nothing it's
1:13:42it's entitled this door commission and then if you skip to article four it's the highlands local historic district and there's some teeth in there as to what the local historic district is so what was presented to me and it made perfect sense is we should change article 2 to have all the powers and duties of the historic commission the historical commission so that'll be article 2.
1:14:11haven't touched article 3 at all but then skipping forward to article four is the actual historic districts that are have been implemented right now there's only one local historic district the highlands local historic district but the idea is this could expand with time so right now it's just that one provision for the local historic districts and all the teeth are in article two which is stored commission
1:14:37of all the changes suggested by the historic commission i just wanted to note for the record i'm not sure everybody's aware of it they they had some significant suggestions about uh demolition and everything else that's already included in article three which i haven't touched at all so of anything of substance there's just a couple they wanted to add the word local a few times but everybody's in agreement with how
1:15:00article two and four are and i think every now understands article three i never touched it's always been there any discussions
1:15:21seeing none so attorney ramsey so article two that you submitted in article four are ready to go to be proposed as amendments to that's correct chapter three eight right no change article one or three and complete changes to two and four okay
1:15:51and where do we see the so the combining of the florida historic district commission where does that is that article four is that i think the idea of the historic district commission is is going away i think part of the idea if i remember right you can correct me if i'm wrong is that was the commission that was uh the purpose of it was to enact this it was the study commission okay to me to
1:16:14enact the historic commission and now that we have it we don't need that so we're just so by taking article four doing the local historic district in this ordinance we've accomplished what we needed to accomplish and obviously eliminating the uh initially there were two separate commissions so initially there were two separate commissions there was the historical commission and then there was the
1:16:37historic district commission study committee okay and the study committee was put together to determine where um the new historic district was going to be and then when that was enacted they created instead of getting rid of the study committee they just created a separate committee to oversee just the 47 properties in the 40c district and it was kind of redundant because it was the same people on both committees
1:17:05and then the issue came into play when the charter came in and then we had people the same people sitting on two committees and there was a whole big thing about that but essentially we it's for the same purpose it's just so we would oversee that one section um but it didn't make sense to have two separate committees especially because one of them had there was a crossover on both committees
1:17:30only we couldn't get enough people to serve on two separate committees okay it was always we were always having trouble getting a quorum and we still are we have a trouble when we try and um get a quorum for the district commission and we have a homeowner in the commission in the in the district that needs to do something to their property and we can't get you know a quorum together in enough
1:17:53time for them to actually be able to do things in a feasible amount of time and same thing with the historical commission we have people that come to us for letters of support we have the developers that are coming in because they need to let us for tax credits from the state people for the community preservation committee funds and they have a deadline that they have to do this so it makes it
1:18:15tougher so combining the two we actually we will have if we combine the two we'll have six people and we would just need one other person and we did i did get an application from somebody that's interested so that would give us actually a full seven people for the one commission and then we'd finally leave great good okay so i think this one's ready to go discussion promotion um i would make a motion to approve
1:18:43motion to approve the recommended recommended ordinance uh for articles two and four was made by councillor dion second by council proposal discussion seeing none all those in favor aye opposed so voted motion carries thank you thank you does this mean that we just got to go to council for for first reading and then so two meetings will be good perfect seeing no other business before us is emotion adjourned
1:19:14motion made by council proposals second by council dion all those in favor post so voted motion carries initially the city council committee on ordnance is now adjourned
1:20:05you