5.8.2023 Special City Charter

everybody Welcome to the special Charter Review Committee 2020 to 2023 it's Monday May 8th 2023 at 5 p.m we are meeting in the hearing room at one government center in Fall River Massachusetts open meeting law pursuant to the open meeting law any person may make an audio or video recording of this public meeting or may transmit the meeting through any media attendees are therefore advised that such recordings

or Transmissions are being made whether perceived or unperceived by those present and are deemed acknowledged and permissible with that can we have the Pledge of Allegiance please I miss it

did I did you say yes yes okay thank you if we could have attendance please starting to my right then Mitchell Rena Brown Laura Washington Tracy Almeda okay and uh Mimi laravee is unable to make it tonight she called and I think she had like I figured it was a gender or budget but she'll be here after this Monday sends her regrets Tim also called and he may not be able

to make Monday nights due to some type of commitment he didn't get into detail he sends his regrets Mr Rumsey will be late and I have not heard from Kathy but she might have sent me an email that she was missing this week and other than that everybody else is here moving on public comment seeing none moving on ex-officio membership role that was just a little tidbit that I thought we should clarify

if we need if anybody needs a legal opinion from cooperation Council feel free to email Alan directly and then he will have it prepared for the next meeting he doesn't have a vote and he actually his his membership on this is just by Statute by way of his office so he's really not supposed to throw out legal opinions he could give the same opinions the three of us give but they're not official no lawyer would

do that because it opens it up to issues but um if any member of the committee needs a legal opinion on something that they're tossing around or question um I can give you Alan's email or it's on the group email you can email him individually you don't have to email the whole committee you can get it and and if you want to share it share it if you don't move on sure

um so he can give his personal opinion can give a personal opinion um he's the uh the Robert's Rule go under Robert's Rules of Order and ex-officio member is has the same exact rights as every other member only by our Charter he doesn't vote some ex-official members can vote some can our Charter says our ex officio cannot vote but he can give personal opinions and if he wants as Corporation counsel to provide

a legal opinion we should give him the courtesy of emailing him all right any other comment seeing none discussion review of the following ballot position in Mass General law 54 um chapter 42 and I did send out if everybody did not get it with the email I sent out that particular uh statute Mass General law it's attached right here Mass General Law chapter 54 section 42 because we were discussing 7-4

ballot position let me get to it our Charter says section 4 ballot position city election it says regular city election but I think there was already a motion made in past to take out regular but as it's written it says section 7-4 ballot position comma regular city election the order in which names of candidates for each office appear on the ballot shall be determined by a drawing by lot conducted by the city clerk

not later than seven days after the certification of the preliminary election results in the event there is no preliminary election in advance of a special city election the drawing shall be conducted on the sixth Tuesday Pride to the special city election the draw and shall be open to the public and if memory serves me correctly we already had a motion that passed to strike regular from the title

that thank you madam chair I'm in a motion at the last meeting to do one thing and take the lottery out of the ballot position that was the only my only intent of that motion was to eliminate the lottery okay and to eliminate the city court I would like to eliminate and if it comes up again I've seen some other places where the city court is involved in certain sections of article Lake that

we're going to discuss tonight if we get there it would be my position I'm going to move to strike every area where the city court is mentioned as it relates to article 8 and petitions and so forth and have that go to the Board of Elections because Vega depending on what we do there's areas in there where they'll be certifying signatures and however when we get there you'll see what I'm

referencing but uh my only motion at the last meeting regarding 7-4 was to strike the lottery out of determining ballot positions for all elections and to have the Civic work out of the process for seven four yup okay so um and I believe that motion was made voted upon and passed well we put it over for today because nobody had a copy of Mass General law 54 42. okay uh and

so we put it over so that we could all get a copy of that because I remember the motion being made I thought we were waiting till everybody had an opportunity to read that's the one where that goes on by alphabet and incumbents on the top and by alphabet and then new candidates by alphabet on the bottom yeah I mean how the state does it is what I'm referencing but the lottery was

something entirely new that was designed again uh with the advice strong advice of the German and the consultant of the original charter Commission uh it passed I was very vocal against it then I'm gonna be very vocal against it now I think it's full wish to have a lottery I think it ought to revert back to the way it was before the adoption of this channel so would you consider adding the

language that the ballot position is the way the state does it mgl 54 section 42.

well I I did not read that section what I was going to suggest is perhaps put in the order in which names of 10 days for each office appear on the regular city election ballot shall be determined as provided in Mass general laws chapter that's it more or less the way it was before the lottery came in yes yeah that takes care it just says it goes by incumbents first the ballots used to be incumbents by

alphabetical order on the um you know on the top section of that position and then alphabetical order underneath them of new candidates I guess we'll talk about what was it for a preliminary Amendment told me you know well there's a separate section that's in 72b that says the order in which names of candidates for each office appear on the ballot meaning preliminary ballot shall be determined by drawing by lot

conducted by the city clerk at least 40 days before the preliminary election who's roaring shall we open to the public so we want to change that to alphabetical or incumbents first or I I I would prefer alphabetical so but it should be the order in which names of candidates for each office appear on the it should say preliminary election ballot shall be in alphabetical order right right

they Define it in the statute frankly I'm not married to any certain way what I don't want is the lottery yeah I'm absolutely vehemently opposed to a laundry I think it's ridiculous we never had a lottery before we don't need a lot of remote can I ask Ed Council of Washington yes what what you think because you're obviously going to be on the bottom of any ballot yes I well my thoughts my thoughts are

that I'm going to change my last name to Abraham and get moving no honestly it it does you know uh suck when you go to Washington as the last thing you will always be on the bottom and they'll always know where to find you so um negative impact your position on the ballot yeah I do I I honestly if I give my honest opinion I I think it does I think

that um being on the bot but I but do I do do I think that the lottery I think if I think incumbent should be first which does wouldn't help me anyway because that style that is but I think a convinced should go first and then it you know the last name is what the last name is and it goes on the bottom I just think it makes it super easy clean and simple it

it is what it is all I'll say is Kathy Barbara did very well on the bottom of the ballot for years yeah I I so it's it it's not your ballot position it's your Effectiveness in getting your message out and proving your electability what whether your name starts with a zero X it shouldn't matter so there's a motion but let me just I can ask you another question before we vote in second hand

okay so the motion is addressing seven two little B as well as seven four correct these ballot positions for the preliminary and the regular what what I really want to do I say it has two things I really want to strike out a lot that that to me is one piece the rest of it however it turned out is how it turned yeah you can't just strike the lottery

no is it no one but but I I see it as two yeah I think it's true so celebrate the motion yeah so I want to start an order I move that section seven oh okay I move that section seven two small B ballot position we the order in which names of candidates for each office appear on the preliminary election ballot shall be in the alphabet a lot of alphabetical order of the surname of each candidate

that's one motion that's it I'm preliminaries second any further discussion all in favor aye any opposed okay so seven two small B motion passes did you get the language of that Paul okay and then is there a motion be changed to the order in which names of standings for each office appear on the regular city election ballot shall be determined as provided in Mass general laws chapter 54 section 42.

second any further discussion all in favor any opposed motion passes thank you hey do you uh uh do you want a copy of that Mass General law wait I have one question it seems that oh should we see the person 7-2 yeah is dealing primarily with the preliminary election procedures and 7-4 is dealing primarily with the regular City elections thank you we voted previously to take out regular

oh did we we did and I and and seeing the way this is constructed it should stay in right I'm thinking it should stay in because there seems to be some difference between the way those elections are handled so in order to keep that Clarity I recommend or I'm recommending keeping regular City elections in seven four yeah let me check Paul do you recall us taking out regular in seven four

Noah was proposed because I have notes but I don't know right like I have mine stricken out but I don't know you and I usually write okay if it's voted on

seven four

we might not have you know because I would have I wrote I usually take notes when we have a motion that does it we do address seven two on the March 27th this would have been it'll be in your notes for May 1st and I didn't I didn't publish the minutes for May 1st yet or did you oh wait a second did they go out May 1st minutes I didn't put them on here because I

didn't I didn't publish the minutes yet so the minutes were not on the agenda for tonight but it would be in your May 1st minutes Paul because that's when we brought up 7-4 we had Ryan Lyons down here and um and we discussed with him you know parts of that and that's when we decided that you know until we had 54 42 we weren't going to change the language of it until we had a

copy of the statue

I want to make a motion just to keep the regular yes make the motion yeah I make a motion to keep regular in um 7-4 no 7-3 no 7-4 74. that was where we thought we took it out what did we do we we thought we struck something we thought we struck out regular so there's a there's a motion has it been second term regular yeah to keep regular in 7-4 because

there's separate sections on them right um any discussion on keeping regular in all in favor aye aye anybody opposed okay regular stays in 7-4 we didn't touch seven three because I have no notes on it we didn't even discuss it all right

you know I wasn't quite sure the difference between initiatives and referendums that's why I sent out that little like um well both both do and um so I printed up a little initiative versus referendum and sent it out with the agenda because I needed educating on initiative and versus referendums um because they're different and I didn't know what the difference was basically it says initiatives initiative

voting allows citizens to propose new laws while referendum voting allows citizens to vote on existing laws so this section is a mess uh which one oh eight two and eight three oh eight through the hold the whole so article eight no but I'm just saying it too it is in a class itself um a article 8 citizen participation mechanisms eight one is not on the agenda but is there any anybody wants to discuss free

petition section eight one I wouldn't discussion don't discuss it we tabled it in one of the prior meetings and it hasn't been brought forward oh eight one okay so we're on eight two and eight a two and eight three is on the agenda we believe from the table at any time eight one was tabled I have a note next to eight ten eight one that says it was Tampa I don't believe one was ever discussed

hang on let me see free petition tables well eight one yeah it wasn't on the last agenda if you what uh citizens have to get signatures to have which is ridiculous I'll explain why when we if and when it comes off the table because all you gotta do you know let's get it off the table is there a motion to take it off the table a motion to take the tabling of eight

one off the table I make a motion to take eight one off the table second second did all in favor aye any opposed motion passes section 8-1 free petition what's the free petition Danny right three position you've got to get a hundred signatures so while either the city council or the school committee to have a public hearing that's my understanding of a free petition I think it's insane because I'm

going to tell you why as someone that used to do public input very regularly before both the school committee and the city council many many times if someone's discussions are worthy those things end up getting filed as resolutions and going to committees for further discussion if they're Worthy that's been my experience both in stuff that I've discussed and I've seen other citizens have things

end up getting revolutions filed after the agenda and things going to committee so I'm sorry to interrupt so you're saying that 8-1 a free petition is just the request to have a public hearing or is it on a subject oh

eight one free petition the city council or the school committee shall hold a public hearing and act with respect to every petition which is addressed to it which is signed by a hundred or more registered voters and which seeks the passage of a measure the hearing shall be held by the city council or school committee and the action by the city council or school committee shall not be

taken later than six weeks after the petition is filed with the city clerk or the vice chair of the school committee hearings on two or more petitions filed under this section may be held at the same time in place the city clerk of the vice chair of the school committee shall mail notice of the hearing to 10 to 10 persons whose name appear first on the petition at least seven days before the

hearing notice by publication of all such hearings shall be at public expense okay I'm gonna I'm gonna modify a little bit what I said based upon what you just read my understanding based on what you just read is if a group of citizens want the city council or the school committee to bring up some subject that they feel needs discussing this is an Avenue for them to do it to get a

hundred signatures and then once it certified it's presented to the body and the process that you just laid out six weeks goes forward and there's a public hearing um I don't know in five years since this China has been adopted I don't know I won't say Yes I won't say no I don't know if this provision has ever been used so if I wanted the if I wanted the garbage cans to be pink

I get a hundred signatures on my petition for the city council to address the color of the garbage cans hypothetically yes that's my understanding of what a free position and then they that I get my 100 signatures the clerk certifies it and then notice goes out to 10 people and within six weeks the city council has to hear my petition I would like the trash cans to be paid my understanding

is that's what it works and then it's just a vote I believe so right instead of a counselor introducing a resolution this is the way that a voter can introduce something absolutely okay I get it now because maybe you can't get a council attention to do so I want pink trash cans hence the reason and I'm just gonna we've already discussed this but this is what you just cited is the reason why I

think and we were proper to stay at nine council with that watch because and you're right you may not get one to end for this one but if I talk to one and I politely get a middle finger I have eight other options right wow and if all nine say yeah we're not going to talk about your pink trash cans right now no no I don't have to go get 100

people to sign it and then they have to talk about it okay and then then you do your talking at The Ballot Box when they're begging for your vote so what's the problem with what is it that you don't like about the hundred votes we didn't even no one said we didn't like it Oh I thought you said you didn't like it oh wow I I think there are easier ways

to have the same thing achieved but this is what it is it's a way for a voter to bring something up if a counselor or group of counselors as a body not singling out any one member right if they say no we don't want to discuss that I can say let's go get a hundred signatures

we reduce the number of signages from 100 to 50. I'll second that discussion on uh the motion to reduce the hundred signatures to 50.

how often often this isn't it this is brand new with this Charter so my knowledge it's never been used I don't know that for sure and so that that's my question in the last five years at this chart it's been five years right um has it ever been used has this ever maybe people don't know it's there yeah I mean that's the other thing they might not know they have that ability a lot of

people didn't understand what was in this channel I can tell you right now I didn't understand what it meant until you explained it well I wonder if that means if we're not understanding it perhaps the language needs to be changed so that our residents will better understand what their opportunities are for a voice and oh but when public decisions a language is very queer right now it's changing the language isn't

going to do it reducing the signatures in my opinion will help the matter uh uh once the public sees the recommendations we make they'll understand more of what we've done I believe I I do I do though notice by publication of all such hearing shall be a public expense the hundred people have to pay for the notice or the city does it okay all right thank you but I didn't

even know why that had to be there like everything is well because otherwise it tells you to pay into the neighborhood okay all righty I like it no this is not that I understand I think it makes sense yeah yeah I don't know how many people who use it but you know it's there if you want I think it's more immediate things in your neighborhood of that but so the Motions for 50. welcome to reduce

the number of signatures required for a free petition to go from 100 down to 50. used to be a lot more enthusiastic about being a signature opinion motion's been made and seconded any more discussion okay can we vote on that all in favor of reducing the number from 100 to 50. all right anybody opposed I I like the hundred I oppose okay so motion passes all in favor Laura Washington opposes okay now here we go

here we go eight two and eight three they're long I'm going to take a five minutes to read them okay I'm going to read a two stop and we'll go over it and then I'll read eight three section 8-2 City initiative measures small a commencement initiative procedures shall be started by the filing of a proposed initiative petition with the city clerk or the vice chair of the school committee the

petition shall be addressed to the city council or to the school committee shall contain a request for the passage of a particular measure which shall be set forth full in the petition and shall be signed by at least 250 voters at least 25 signatures must be certified from each Ward the petition shall be accompanied by an affidavit signed by 10 voters containing their residential addresses stating those voters will

constitute the petitioners committee and be responsible for circulating the petition and filing it in proper form maybe I should stop after each one yeah already can we I um I I just want to discuss it before we do the Motions absolutely I read it and I I thought 250 voters was a lot and I it's a lot of work for the elections office to certify 25 signatures from each Ward we have nine we still have

nine Wards yeah which means when those signatures come in the elections office has to certify them as being the registered voter in that Ward which I find kind of monotonous and unnecessary I like why 25 from each Ward we're not even award voting we're we're at large council at large school committee why would it have to be 25 from each War not not only that Madam yes and I'm going to say this every time

we talk about getting sick hoping to get a shirt made is number number one are arbitrary in my opinion okay secondly whatever number gets finalized and every one of these sections you need to get more than the required number because you're always going to have signatures rejected right I don't know how we hear you loud and clear well it seems difficult because it's not it's not 250

signatures you've got to get Triple that right and you've got to make sure 25 from each word which means people running around getting signatures have to submit them sit and wait for the I just find that to be a lot of work for elections I mean I'd love to see that part about 25 from each one the first issue is the vote I don't think it should be different than the free

petition so if the vote was I like the hundred but it voted to 50 why would that change why should that be different I don't know why the numbers because it's on the ballot and there's an expense I'm also not clear if this is only on regular elections or if you get enough do they close special election well we're gonna we're gonna Express the election I think we're talking about 250

people see submission at a regular but that but then there's all different qualifications for a regular election and again maybe it's I just haven't very carefully enough I I just think it's very so is there a motion I like to make one motion to eliminate any signatures coming from the watch that yes that that's that's the first piece I I'd wiped that as a separate motion all right so there's a

motion to eliminate this 25 from each Ward right that motion's been made and that anything that there would be zero signages required from uh specific Wars right so just strike the the sentence that would be stricken Dan is at least 25 signatures must be certified from each Ward that's the only sentence that addresses that correct so your motion is to strike that sentence all right has that been seconded initiatives

you know I mean every now and then we had special elections which the council sets up mostly for Bond issues sending a lot of the bond issues to the ballot now because they break them in pieces yeah anything over 5 million is supposed to go to the voters but they have a very keen way of breaking uh breaking things up so that it's just under 5 million dollars so the voters don't get a thing

that's separate that's by um ordinance I just I can't think of the initiative there's a motion to strike just that one sentence it's been seconded any more discussion on striking that sentence all in favor anybody opposed to striking that sentence all right the motion to strike at least 25 signatures must be certified from each Ward motion to strike that has passed now is there any other motions regarding

anything else in that the 250 voters total I guess I'm I'm having trouble understanding the difference between so this is for our politicians this is for the city council this is not ballot right this is citizen initiative Med free petitions are just to go I'm going to go to city council with it nobody wants to bring it up I get 100 people and you guys have to talk about

it and vote on my pink Barrel thing the city initiative measure goes on ballots it's so a little bit more than a pink so so friction D indicates that it goes to the city council or the school committee right that's what I'm saying so they can pass it without change that's what I'm saying like so you still still has to come to the city council it's not like you get 250 votes in the room it's it's

on it's on the ballad do you know what I mean it still has to go in front of the city council yeah anyway so I I would I would motion that that 250 be knocked down to 100.

I'll second that there is a motion to change the language in eight two small a to a hundred signatures made by Dan seconded by Rina any further discussion all in favor aye aye aye all anybody opposed to changing it from 250 to 100 motion passes moving on 8-2 citizen initiative measures small B referral to the City attorney referral to the city the city clerk while the vice chair of the school

committee shall immediately following receipt of a proposed petition deliver a copy of the petition to the City attorney the City attorney shall within 15 days follow receipt of the copy of the petition in writing advise the city council or school committee and the city clerk whether the measure as proposed May lawfully be proposed by the initiative process and whether in its present form it may lawfully be adopted

by the city council or school committee if the opinion of the City attorney is that the measure is not in proper form the reply shall State the reasons for this opinion in full a copy of the opinion of the City attorney shall be mailed to the members of the petitioners committee thank you instead of having the acidic working mom why not the Board of Elections since they they would be they would be certifying signages

I just don't see whether whether the city courts would would come in especially with the vice chair because you know that's that's not an office and why is it making a job why isn't the vice chair of the school committee well I I'll tell you this the eight I mean how do you get the voice it doesn't talk about these being certified by the way too so I don't see this go into

elections at all eight two a doesn't talk about having to certify those signatures it just says has to be signed by 250 250 voters um you're right you get more because but nothing in here says that those have to be certified so the referral to the City attorney it doesn't have any it doesn't have the city clerk of the vice chair I think they put City Clerk and vice chair because they're kind of like the

secretaries like the city clerk secretary isn't right so why isn't it the clerk does the school committee apply I believe does the school committee have a clerk like you know we have um do they have somebody's confidential secretary they have a paid secretary they have a confidential secretary we'll handle stuff like this I mean there's an Administration office over there it could be I mean I certainly don't

disagree that the City attorney should look at it and if there's something legally wrong with that no I don't and I don't I'm not particularly concerned with how it gets there either it seems that this

stamp it to signify when the clock starts ticking to response the record keep in place yeah I mean are there any motions for small bait okay moving on eight Dash let's see two small C submission to the city clerk if the City attorney determines that the petition is in proper form the city clerk shall provide blank forms for the use of subsequent signers and shall print at the top of each blank

form a fair concise summary of the proposed measure as determined by the city to attorney together with the names and addresses of the petitioners committee the city clerk shall notify the petitioners committee that the blank forms are issued within 120 days following the date of the notice the petition shall be returned and filed with the city clerk signed by at least 10 percent of the total number of Voters

as of the date of the most regular city election signatures to an initiative petition need not all be on a single paper but all papers pertaining to any single measure shall be fastened together and shall be filed as a single instrument with the endorsement on it of the name and address of the person designated as filing the papers with each signature on the petition there shall also appear the

street and number of the resident of each signer within 10 days following the filing of the petition the board of election Commissioners this is where they get involved shall ascertain the number of Voters that signed the petition and the percentage that number is of the total voters as of the date of the most regular city election the board of election Commissioners shall attach to the petition a certificate showing

the results of its examination shall return the petition to the city clerk of the vice chair of the school committee depending on how the petition is addressed a copy of the board of election commissioner's certificate shall also be mailed to the members of the petitioners committee is this that section where we had a side vote I'm confused no no no no no

vote is as I read it it's not who voted but it's who's registered at the most recently ten percent of the total number is voters as the date ambiguous for what though that's the number signages you have to get once the um the City attorney says it's kosher then you need 10 of what I read as the registered voters at the most recent city election so put it on the ballot

yeah which well you know that would be four thousand some five thousand some it seems like a very long process seems like a larger process to have anything but I think that's common with like State initiatives and uh but so what would the other process be though because it so someone could always put on the ballot so if you don't have these procedures implemented they could just be things you know all the time so

I think that it's put that way for a reason can I um just say I think I would like some information from elections I had to do this to Ryan Lyons again and what I'll do is I mean we don't know the last time an initiative was done right an initiative I think there's been references what was the the last thing that we voted on was the MBTA that was initiative a

referendum because it's one of the other one I think we didn't have a choice on what separated this I believe it's initiative it's a Citizens initiatives first thing I'm going to say is I'd like to see that ten percent go down to five percent

I I wouldn't mind seeing it lower than that I think I I think I think even five percent well people registered voters did he say we have 50 52.

if I can get it past five why get a two plus one so yeah so if we had 52 000 at 10 they want 5200 right so if it's five percent it's 2500 some inches so you still have to get four thousand yeah right or three thousand I don't know I I just think citizens should readily be able to do excuse me motion for one person I'd second that

was 500 no no it's just oh that's 500.

so you could get that in an afternoon Danny yeah I can I have a discussion yeah no no we're still watching there's no motion on the table well there's there's a motion to make it one percent and and I seconded it but it's still open for Destruction about the one percenters I'm just saying that uh attorney Brown it's not a good thing here because that's you can have people with any idea all day long walk

up and down South Main Street for 35 minutes and get 500 signatures to put anything on the ballot I think if you are really engaged in the community and you want to change something you are going to put the work in and you were going to collect the signatures now does it have to be four thousand uh no but you get three thousand to 2500 it should be a number that puts a lot of work into

it so you're just not sitting there coming up with ideas whenever you want and wanting to change things and put on the balance of process and not only with that process comes you know Finance Financial to the back of it so I think that there should be a process and that process should entail a lot of work it shouldn't be someone behind us I'm with you a keyboard that has all these ideas

and can't put a price on Democracy you can't put a price in democracy but you can't put a price on hard work either so you say you can't put a price on it but you do it but hey I'm not gonna yeah so I Let's see we got 52 000 voters yeah so 10 is five thousand five percent is twenty five hundred I could live with that don't go back to my original it's

10 here right now yes I want a 50 reduction down to five percent so you modify your original motion so now Dan's momented motion is to change ten percent to five percent five percent of the total number of Voters as of the date of the most recent regular city election clarification that's not people that I'm sorry Dan that's not people that voted that's fine totally registered voters

that's pretty ambiguous yes it really is so we probably should clean up specialist Danny yeah

it's a little hard for a roll of time so if I don't I just want to get it right this time Dan would you mind if if your motion is amended a little bit to be five percent of the total number of registered voters we need to put that one that that word in there I I never want to see percentages based on voters I don't know why no that's ridiculous right so now your motion is

to change the language five percent of the total number of registered like this yeah and I seconded that in any more discussion on that motion all in favor anybody opposed to that change okay very good and regular total number of registered voters as of the last recent election add registered moving on small D action competitions 8-2 small D action competitions within 30 days following the data petition has been

returned to the city clerk or vice chair of the school committee the city council or school committee shall act with respect to each initiative petition by passing it without change by passing a measure which is stated to be in lieu of the initiative measure or by rejecting it the passage of a measure which is in lieu of an initiative measure shall be deemed to be a rejection of the initiative measure if the city

council or school committee fails to act within 30 days following the date the measure is returned to it the measure shall be deemed to have been rejected on the 13th day if an initiative measure is rejected the city clerk or vice chair of the school committee shall probably give notice of that fact to the petitioners committee by a certified mail that word it is I I may bring a motion that our

clerks get to clean it up I get on I think emotion that they clean up all the lord well we did take that we did it over looks is if it's less than five percent without a change shouldn't even go to the council right right so it's not in CED it just says right so so I guess you need another provision and I'm saying if they don't get the five percent

dies in the city clerk's office so maybe I'm action competitions you put in if they fail to get five percent that decision fails they get notice also if this if nobody acts on it in 30 days it's deemed rejected petition fails and if the city count this is how I read it the city council gets this initiative measurement but they change it then the original petition fails and it's theirs that stands right yeah

it's a lot though they can also reject that right well they could let it sit in 30 days all they have to do is put it in a committee and it dies wow what happens if you do all that work get the signages and the city council says no F addresses that right yeah F addresses it I'll get there all right so there's a motion for the clerks to clean up D there you go Paul

can I get a second second and any further discussion on the motion for the clerks to clean it up what is it are we having to remove anything they're going to clean it up make it less wordy I think the the point is is to tell them what happens next you get your signatures here's what happens it goes to the city council but what happens in the city council is Stu school committee

I think it could be a little clearer and less wordy the whole thing could be yes well it's also going to address I think if you got less than five percent I mean it's evident what it's intended right but it doesn't you know it doesn't say what the procedure is if you get less than five percent it fails and yeah but it doesn't say that it doesn't say that

it just says it goes to the city council I'll modify my motion that when the clerks clean that up they add the sentence that less than five percent Mo that petition fails amended motion thank you do you get that Paul all in favor anybody opposed thank you moving on to E submission of initiative petition at regular municipal election if an initiative petition is certified as containing a minimum of

eight percent of voter signatures but less than 15 percent such initiative shall be placed on the next regular municipal election ballot all provisions of 8-2 may be applicable remain in effect including but not limited to sections a 8-2 a b c d g h i holy sugar I was gonna say this is painful didn't we just discussed gospels you went from 10 down I never understood that why it says eight

percent that's what I would do before anybody asked me I don't know why it said I didn't even remember it was there I'm going to make a motion to read if an initiative petition is certified as containing the minimum of five percent of Voters signatures strike out less than shall initiative shall be placed on the right next regular municipal election all Provisions apply yeah is that emotion

that's emotion all in favor um

because these people wait to hear themselves forward that's why me that's why meeting one for three hours yeah we're not much accomplished so can we can we strike out that last well I think you I think because it's talking about the submission I think you have to keep the reference to the other ones in that's how I read it yeah I know I'm confused we'll leave it in for now yes to confuse

anything but I'm yeah I've been so focused on the numbers how many days do people have to happen a hundred um 120.

they post a notice they go they have 120 days 120 days all of these and then the school committee and city council is 30 well then it goes to the attorney he has 15 days and then it goes to the city council or school committee and they have 30 days so 120 15 and 30.

it's like almost the okay yeah supplementary petitions within 60 days following the date in initiative petition has been rejected here's what what you asked before a supplemental initiative petition may be filed with the city clerk or the vice chair of the school committee but only by the persons constituting the original petitioners committee the supplemental initiative petition shall be signed by a by a

number of additional voters equal to at least five percent of the total number of Voters as the date of the most regular city election the signatures on the initial petition filed under subsection C and the signatures on the supplemental filed under this subsection taken together shall contain the signatures of at least 15 percent of the total numbers voters as of the date of the most regular city election

if the number of signatures to this supplemental petition is found to be sufficient by the city clerk the city council shall call a special election to be held on a date not less than 35 no more than 60. follow the date of the certification of the city clerk that a sufficient number of Voters have signed the supplemental initiative petition and shall submit the proposed manager without alteration to the voters for

determination but if a city election is to be held within 90 days file the date of the certificate certificate the city council May omit call the special election and cause the question to appear on the election ballot at the approaching election for determination by the voters one I'm completely confused it's a it's a process if you're rejected it's telling you if we reject you I I get that small piece well

I thought I heard your reading correct me if I'm wrong you did more voters so I thought I heard you read a group of people have done all this work the city council and its Infinite Wisdom says the hell would you public we say no so now where we have to do we have to start the process all over again and go get more signatures because the city council has said we don't like uh

you did and we're going to reject you well I'll tell you if I started a petition like that and I was leading a group and we got all the signatures every person that rejected that position if I had the legal number of signatures ought to be subject to recall so I couldn't agree with you more because I think it's that's a direct slap in the face that any voter they followed the process and the witness

body on their high horse is going to say oh no and then on top of it you're gonna send us out to get more signatures that is the ultimate slack in the face to the voters of the city of forum and any sitting Council ever to do that in this city should be subject to an automatic recall I um share your passion about what this if it's rejected what it has to do I certainly

would hope that if it's rejected there's good reason and I I think maybe they have to I don't know maybe it needs to be something fixed I I don't know there certainly has to be a process if it's rejected well why can't but does the process have questions Council reject States I don't think at the state level if you get enough signatures the only person who ever rejection is the city uh the

Secretary of State for some technical technical reasons the SJC rejects something because there's a challenge it doesn't seem like we need F at all I mean no we're going to have voter participation yeah then why are you going to further limit it it doesn't make sense what happens though if because see um you know D says action on it so Danny gets initiative he gets 4 000 signatures it goes to the City attorney City

attorney says this is legally sound no conflict with state or federal law and then it goes down to the city council and the city council rejects it well it dies well they can't no no right yeah they no it says in here if they don't act on it within 30 days it's automatically rejected being able to reject Ed I thought it was the voters didn't act it did we put in did an act then it would

be directly in language that says if you meet the required number of signatures for any section that involves the city council or any other legislative body being able to reject it that if you met the signature requirements in each section that no no legislative body can just reject it that maybe we just can't take out deep I'll just take out take out D and you can't let them reject it I just like

to know more though about it I mean what did they do with other initiatives let me um you know I think that um I was thinking that I think the um Community preservation Act was adopted by an initiative petition but again that's State that's like an option for state right okay yeah but they had to get signatures right they did yeah that's right they did and it went through the ballot yeah so yeah

I move that we strike out the city council from this process if they're not in it they can't reject it so the school committee right so listen it you're talking about D so 8-2d action on petitions within 30 days fall on the date the petition went to the city clerk of Vice chair it goes before those bodies I'm paraphrasing okay it goes before those bodies for them to act on it

if they pass it the way it is it goes on if they change it it's deemed rejected and if they don't act on it in 30 days it's deemed rejected yeah they have no option they're not there they can let it die the city council or the school committee can let it die yeah that can't be in there no if they approve it it means that there's no election right if they don't approve it then it

goes to the elections right that makes much more sense to me if you're going to have voter interaction well what I don't want is somebody goes through this process and then our esteemed city council said oh no we don't like this you're all done no so the language should change that when it goes to the city council and the school committee if they adopt it we don't need to go to a ballot process

but if they reject it then we go to the ballot process it should not die if they say no right and you're going to take out that language like passing the measure which is stated to be in Louisville I think that what should the whole supplementary petition will be eliminated yeah if the council wants to enact it they can enact it then it goes the ballot right and that's the decision for Laura

right but I think a motion needs to be made to take away the part about one if it sits there for 30 days it's deemed rejected they either act on it or they don't and if they don't reject it I think you just take the first within 30 days following the day it's been returned the city council school committee shall act with respect to its another petition bypassing it without change um

not shalack but may act with respect to it by passing without change or if the council fails too inactive without change then the measure shall go to the ballot I I don't know what language I want now all I want is the city council thousands of signatures exactly that's why it's important to have the thousands of signatures and not just 200. so so D is going to read something like it goes to them they pass it

or they don't if they reject that it goes to the power it goes to the ballot and then that eliminates if that's how it's written then we completely eliminate this part about supplemental um the one I just read okay the 120 days 15 whatever it was I just wanted f f comes out whatever comes out so the first motion is yeah f is because it deals so the first motion we initially

passed a motion for the clerk to clean up D so I guess the motion is for the clerk to clean it up especially when it comes to um this change in the the initiative measure language okay you just want to give the council two choices yeah they adopt it or if they reject it it goes the balance okay is that good no we need a formal emotion I don't think so I think the

clerk knows how to clean it up can I because remember we're going to look at the draft and clean it up again by vote later one comment that I have is if we go black and white you pass it or you don't it takes off the table the option of making a slight modification that might be fine with that might satisfy the petitioners exactly so I don't necessarily want to take that off

the table because I think it hurts the petitioners more than it hurts the city council at school can the petitioners have the option of adopting the amended measure let let's say that I want these barrels pink that's all there is to it I get 2 000 signatures and I go and the council says we'll tell you what Rena pink not okay but we're going to give you orange and I

go orange might be okay with me can the petitioners have the option of saying you know something the amendment by the city council we can live with well I wonder because then not every person who signs the form not every signature would be represented in that space so they have 10 petitioners that are are deemed their committee so okay so that's the voice so that the voice is the 10 people

okay I can I give a perfect example we'll talk let's take this chatter for example when this Charter was done and sent out to the voters it was so confusing people didn't know if they were talking about a City China they didn't know what a City China was they thought they were voting on this chart of schools it was a nightmare okay and the whole thing is a nightmare so if we're talking about something like this

and you need to we've cut it down to 2500 volts something has to get to go on the ballot that's it you had 2500 votes it's going on the ballot and guess what what if the language is so confusing in there that nobody has the opportunity to say hey you know what we like this idea but let's make revision so we can the language could be understood and so that's what's important so who's going

to write this and who's it's going to go on the ballot I think that there's got to be something in there to say yes let's do a revision maybe not strike it down but let's revise it so maybe that 30-day mock is not if they don't respond in 30 days it doesn't get taken off the table um you have 30 days to see if you want to revision if you don't then it has to

approve or revise yes 30 days to approve our advice because I I'm telling you that can be dangerous with the language of people not you know well it goes I mean you know it goes to the City attorney and I think if the language was that crazy because the the other paragraphs say it has to be a short concise statement of what this initiative is right and then it goes to the City attorney and he's

going to double check it for short concise explainable right I I think by the time it gets to the council if it's not short concise statement because it it makes sure that it says on here it has to be a a short concise statement of what this initiative measures but so I understand that but by the time but it's not going to come to the council now what if it's

not so concise and who and what if the attorney is I mean I I just think that there's some there there should be a checks and balance here I really do think that there should be some some type I don't think that they should be able to exit out I absolutely not but I think that there should be some other checks and balances I mean uh what if it's not you know very competent Alan

Rumsey that we have in in five seven years and it's someone else I I don't know I just feel like there should be a more of a check and balance other than 200 uh 2500 sicknesses well then say you want higher signages because that's really what you think that's not what I'm saying dude you just said it that's not what I'm saying what I'm saying if I go ask you for your signature in

show us parking lot and you say yeah you know that sounds good but guess what they didn't explain it very well at least there's a time for 30 days where that can be explained on the better and some modifications could be made to them I'm sorry I just think that there should be about it say what you want you want more signature that's not what I want it that's what you just said no Dan what

I'm saying is that the council should be able to say I want to amend this there should be a time oh listen I'm just one vote but I do think that there should be a checks and balances to take a look at that so whether you have 10 signatures 25 is 10 000 signatures I don't care put a number to it but I think there should be a check and balances that someone can

make a modification to that and with that you're taking that off the table I think it actually helps the people that are submitting The Proposal because it gives them an another option rather than a yes or no vote have a modification I would like that third option as a citizen if I was going to bring something to the city I would like that opportunity for a modification to be presented to me and for me to consider

that along with my other nine constituents who are submitting that proposal so I don't think it's a matter of more signatures I think it's another option that ultimately benefits the folks that are submitting the request take place City attorney and the city council meet and discuss the revisions at that time then this the vote then it gets sent to an election if necessary if they if they

don't now it might be able to be taken up in that hearing if it's a yes or a modification it might not need to go to vote it would only go to vote if it's a no so there's the opportunities abound for those people submitting the proposal to have their motion Pat or their proposal passed but there's going to be there is a chance to say no we want our original language

right and that would be at the hit within maybe that 30 days would be they would have to have some sort of a hearing to modify if the city council or the school committee was prepared to revise the language then that might take place within 30 days and then they would have to answer to that request so you get nine counselors how many school committee if the city if the if this group of

citizens because remember in the beginning there's right now as it's written there's there's a hundred of them right and um they have to sign it 10 of those hundred become the committee they have worked and thought about that initiative measure and they have said this is our this is our voice and and this is how we want it and it goes they get the signatures and it goes to the City

attorney and the City attorney says it's legally sound no conflict of law I don't think the council or the school committee should have the right to tell the citizens who have worked feverishly on this we need a revision because you know because because that because then they should be you're already changing what the voters have gone out and done if they do and the and the and those

folks reject it then it goes to the on a ballot then it goes on a ballot right so so the council should think long and hard about rejecting something that two thousand something voters I think this is a problem I personally I think you have pitting the city council against the public when the city council is for the public they're the voice of the public not in this position do you say what you want

and so I'm thinking I mean this you're creating a process where you're saying oh they're gonna they're gonna absolutely reject it so we gotta not have a voice when I think that this is a time where people can work together I'll make the motion and get the votes if that's what you want to do what I'm telling you right now no one like the body has the right to interfere with what citizens have taken off nothing

was the easiest one in America because you had an indicted man and I and I stand by it and I stand by my statements today that I think that the city council should be able to have a voice in this they don't have to change it but they could be able to have revisions to make it even better to make it stronger and have some clarification and I'm gonna say to you with all the respect Council

the absolutely wrong that's okay I yield what's the motion so so if the city council is if there's a Corporation Council says it's legally okay then the city council has a public hearing and make suggestions on the initiative where they have three options if they think it's appropriate I thought it's hearing and and the petitioners the representatives of the petitioners can agree to the modifications suggested by the

city council or say no right we want a vote Yes so you're giving them three options yeah they approve it as it's submitted they change it with approval of the 10 petitioners yeah yeah what if a thousand of those voters don't want that what's the third one and reject it or reject it no rejection can is there can we put in there that when they revise it with the attorney because if they don't reject it

it goes to ballot it's rejected they either accept it maybe the city councilors don't want to endorse it and they say okay we understand the position of the people I don't want to endure stuff I know that you want it but where I sit because I'm involved and I have intimate knowledge of the way sits into workings of the city work I can't endorse that provision so I'm going to reject it and so if if

we if if we're the city council and we reject it then then the voters decide and then we get to say as a city council why we rejected it so the people get this just goes then F goes away all of that goes off goes away it's so D would be accepted as written revise it as written or reject or rejected but reject just really means go to vote that's my problem with the middle one is

it will be used as a way to water it down

by the time you get the signatures the 10 people who started it out will no longer be representative it should be acceptable it's a good idea and it's good but the whole point of initiative is we don't trust the council to do it whether you like it or not yeah and we feel this should come up and right if it has to go this way then that means that the council already agreed not to hear it

right it's a third piece in just says uh the heck would you voters the council already agreed not to hear it so if this process has been enacted the council has already said no every the as Dan pointed out that he went to one they polite politely walked away and he has eight more tries if he goes through all nine City councilors and nobody will bring it up at the next hearing then it's already

been rejected by the city council essentially so you kind of know which way it's going to go if it's presented in its current form it's going to go to ballot that's why my suggestion about the modification could save the city some time and energy in the petitioners for that matter by not taking a vote on it by resolving it there because maybe it's just a slight modification and maybe at that point the

voters the the people who put forward the initiative say we're concerned about getting the full vote on it we would rather take the modification yeah I don't know if that options there the council could only say okay this is a good idea just like with the free petition and say yeah this is a good idea we're going to enact it could also say we would have approved it had you

changed it from pink to Orange from pink to Orange they don't not not accordingly after black or white they have the authority to this the result of this which is not clearly explained I mean at the end it just says and I time of taking effect but it doesn't say what take effects an initiative by definition I think would be an ordinance correct I mean it would be an enactment of law

that's what my little research had here and that's what it would be right so what I'm saying is the council could always say okay you people want to make it Pink we wanted orange we're going to make it Orange or the council could just say well no that's not they can't make an orange because the people would have to say Okay aren't but the the better example is if it comes to them and they say okay

we'll make it Pink then I would think it wouldn't go to ballot oh well no it would there would be no need to put it on no it would be it would pass yeah my concern is I should have done consoles and other bodies like that and I know what you're saying and it wouldn't be a good idea but I don't think you'd ever get you think it would money the process is your concern yeah I

think it would say I mean Danny's giving you an example of the people who would present it that's how they would feel they would never feel look in a perfect world it could work out in everyone but they could they would have asked but if they didn't agree there'd always be the sense they got deprived of an opportunity and what's it worth that's why they have the option to reject it if a citizen group

has done the work it either gets passed by the council or goes to the ballot that there has to be some reward for voters taking the initiative to do the work to get the thing passed if the council doesn't want to do it then it goes to the ballot period to watch it it is to have an additional option for the protection of the people submitting okay but I thought we weren't having the Council

thought we're taking the rejection out of it rejection the rejection but they could pass it and save all the trouble they could right but I maybe I'm way too there has to be an if they pass it doesn't it it's an enactment yeah passes it as it's written within that 30 days they said okay we agree with you right there Council says no no right you're passing it down they bring the petition okay and then it

probably becomes a resolution if they it comes before them as a petition if they pass it it becomes whatever it is so the council could say to whoever's in front of that 10 people hey we want to want a publication and that they could say no we're not making that modification you know forget it go to the ballot and that that's it what they could say it just took it off the table

but we just took that off the table yeah I don't think they could you can't think those ten could say it and again I have a disruptive effect on you know maybe out of the 2500 2000 degree but the 500 would think but they come okay I think that's it so it comes before the council within 30 days follow the data petition has been returned to the city clerk or vice chair city council or

school committee shall act with respect to each initiative petition by passing it without change or rejecting it and rejecting I think that middle sentence so there's a motion if they don't pass it and make it wall right there then it becomes then it goes so there's two awesome options all right it's pass or reject and if rejected it goes and if it's rejected it goes to ballot and we

take out and we completely eliminate F and all that nonsense those are two motions

any discussion eliminate F nope uh all in favor okay so we've eliminated f and then there's a second motion to change D to language that once the city council or the school committee gets it they pass it or reject it if they pass it if they pass and it becomes War if they reject it yeah we need that language strictly in there if if the council or any other legislative body rejects it it goes to

the bowel all in favor ask is there a second on that second second uh all in favor anybody opposed motion passes it's either pass accept I mean you know or reject and then to the ballot and F is gone G publication the full text of an initiative measure which is to be submitted to the voters shall be published in at least one local newspaper not less than seven nor more

than 14 days preceding the date of the election at which the question is to be voted on additional copies of the full text shall be available for distribution to the public in the office of the city clerk of the tech shall appear in the City website everything okay there oh yeah oh yeah form of the question uh the ballots used when voting on a measure proposed by the voters under

this section shall contain a question in substantially the following form shall the following measure which was proposed by initiative petition take effect and then you put a summary of it yes or no I'm assuming that's okay and time to just discuss the form of the question yeah I have found the form of those questions somewhat misleading and difficult I don't think that it should I don't think people understand what

they're voting on when it says shall the following measure proposed by initiative take effect it are you in favor of this or not would be a very clear and concise way for the public to make a decision it's like reading the King James version like are you in favor of the initiative to change the barrels to Pink yes or no yes and I mean it's it's no it was just about a

thing it would be a little it's every time I read one of those when I'm when I'm voting I always say this is awful how do people understand what they're voting on even I I'll have to sit there and read it three or four times the whole booklet but the booklet is not in it's not gonna have that there either yeah you're not going to have it when you're voting is there a motion to

change the following the form of question to make it simple yes you have an example um I I support the initiative being proposed or I reject or how about support or opposed either it's fine like the two sentences should be there I support you know you got to put Justice yes I oppose the citizen initiative measure ballot a change of battles pink yeah it says insert a fair concise summary of the proposed measure is

determined and then yes or no if we just strike shall the following measure which was proposed by initiative position take effect if we just strike that so yeah then we collect we get a lot of clarity we have to tell them though how we got there well it's not that I think the problem would be is what if you have something like the initiative is to revive change before we revised ordinance 22.48

I mean I think what you've almost got to require is in the end definition the decisions when people are signing on you know the little language they put on that saying here's what you're almost going to have to have an agreed upon everyone yeah will it just say with this initiative shall change it's a tax rate from whatever to whatever it says here insert the fair concise summary of the

proposed measure as determined by the City attorney so you know that's that plain language should be do you approve and rather than yes or no do you support this changing the blah blah blah or do you oppose it yeah um but some people don't know what that word means yeah I think reject reject or do it yes or no support or do you um reject I don't know uh maybe we could ask the clerk

clean it or for a recommendation for recommendation is that okay it's a motion for the city clerk to make a recommendation on the form of that question the charter clerk yes and motion's been seconded all in favor okay I'm just gonna my notes are gonna say clerk make it simple and um I time of taking effect subject to section 8-6 implies 20 of the total voters vote at the election on which the

initiative is always problematic for me that means not only does it have to be

because that was more I don't know it means there's got to be that number of voting in it it's not the number of votes they've got I don't like I don't like it either that means the turnout and an election can affect whether some that yes that's exactly what it says but it's all right to elect the man with ten percent right I don't like it well only the percentage comes out and you run it

like a regular election it shows eight six for any measure to be effective under the initiative procedure and for any measure to be declared null and void under a referendum procedure at least 20 percent of the voters as of the most regular recent regular city election must have vote at any election that includes on the ballot submission to the voters one or more referendum questions that means the turnout has to

be at least 20 percent yeah but only that's unfair that's 11 000 well ten thousand that that is that is unfair motion to strike 20 and there'd be no percentage and it'd be run like any any ordinary election well let's just go back for a second that's eight six and we're not on it yet all right a small uh right but we could strike that language and motion passes by a majority of the

vote period yeah right yeah so the motion for for eight two little I if I'm correct in time of taking effect um if the majority of votes cast on the question is in the affirmative the measure shall be deemed effective immediately unless there's a date in the measure sometimes measures will say as of January 1st I don't care about it okay I'm worried about I mean even the passage of this job so motion to strike

subject to section 8.6 that's your motion War yes what uh what I really want to take out is there needing to be a certain percentage of Voters that's what that takes it out so the motion is time of taking effect if a majority of the votes cast on the question is in the affirmative the measure shall be deemed to be effective immediately unless a later date is specified that's the motion that's my motion second

thank you and all in favor aye anybody oppose okay nice okay eight three citizen referendum Pros procedures uh eight three no you know what I would suggest is that we incorporate the language and the changes that we made in the initiative procedures to the referendum you know I was looking and I was like some of the same but some are not I think at different percents for boats it's crazy

um this one requires 12. yeah I don't want to see what the the um

maybe I mean why can't we combine initiative measures in referendum and they be identical I know that they're different like researches initiatives are introducing something new referendums are changing what is there right so I think this basically does that so incorporates too you've had a chance to live with to live with that initiative you haven't had a chance to live with it yet right

so I'm assuming but can the procedures be the same then you would have to say that something new is equivalent to something that we've already lived with which I think they're different so is that why it wants more numbers well I think in a the first thing to me it says if within 21 days following the date on which the council school committee has approved something I think that's a short period

you're going to give 60 or 90 days yeah I put so I should I should read it let me read this stuff section 8-3 citizen referendum procedures small a petition effect on final vote if within 21 days following the date on which the city council or the school committee has voted finally to approve any measure a petitioned signed by a number of Voters equal to at least 12 percent of the total number of Voters as

of the date of the most recent regular city election and addressed to the city council or to the school committee protesting against the measure or any part of it is filed with the vice chair of the school committee of city clerk the effective date of that measure shall be temporarily suspended why does this even take this up when this is dealt with in another part of the charter I mean if we why is it even talking

about 12 of the total number of votes that is not even aligned with what the other piece of the charter said so just strike that I mean let me just finish reading it into the record the school committee or the city council shall immediately reconsider its vote on the measure or part of it and if the measure is not rescinded the city council shall provide for the submission of the

question for determination by the voters either at a special election which it may call at its convenience within such time as may be requested by the school committee or at the next regular city election provided however that pending the submission and determination the effect of the measure shall continue to be suspended and be certain initiative Provisions to apply the petition described in this section

shall be termed a referendum petition and insofar as applicable sections a2a describing the manner in which the petition is prepared and filed A2B providing for referral to the City attorney for legal opinion 82g providing for publication of the text of the measure in a2h providing for the form of the ballot question shall apply to such referendum petitions except that the words measure or part thereof protested

against shall be deemed to replace the word measure in sections wherever it may occur in the word referendum shall be deemed to replace the word initiative wherever it occur in said sections

right but a a I don't like the last half of that though oh I get it yeah so they're just changing the language from reperendum right it seems fine because it's it does exactly what you wanted it to do and that it's aligned but it's not aligned in a when you talk about the 12 and the 21 days so I don't really understand that and that might be up for discussion um did

you say the the the community preservation was a referendum or an initiative went right on the balance but the state yeah so I'm still not really sure what a referendum is why isn't it well it's to recall them it's they pass a lawyer you don't like so you get your pink barrels and then I don't like them right and I get a thousand signatures to take away your pink barrels that's a referendum okay

all righty so it's changing what's in effect right now you got to get about seven thousand of course so why are why do they want more in a referendum no it doesn't make any so is there a motion to kind of I think a couple of things at first I mean you gotta you got a time limit then started enacted now they're only giving you 21 days right from the time the unjust law is passed

I just think it ought to be 60 or 90. I mean 21 days it doesn't give you time to digest it can we take it in pieces that doesn't even make sense within three weeks of something passing you can oppose it right well you've got to do it and if you don't that's ridiculous so in November the citizens voted to change the barrels pink because the council wouldn't do it thank you Laura and then

three weeks afterwards so by Christmas right Chris is going to be the council tonight votes to a retire to cut your shrubs down the intersections so you don't like that you've got 21 days uh following day on which the council has voted it might not even be signed into law by then may has got what 10 days oh I see so it hasn't really been enacted well that's right and it says

it's suspended right 21 days is a very strong once they get my petition that I don't want them cutting them they have to they can't act on that they can't it appraises it but right to me the question is 21 days is it much time especially when you consider it's from the bowl and it may not even be inactive but if particular if you have a citizen an initiative process and you've got the

21 days from a different group of citizens who are saying no we don't want that then it I don't know it's it's an initiative to a past right so they'd have to wait till it passed I think it's more typically going to be the council's passes or something people don't like it and they're going to say so what do you suggest so we did five I just think some period of time yeah

90 days with five percent

90 days 90 days five percent okay there's emotions 45 or 60. I like 60. it's too much assuming it's going to be inactive right right because if the man dinos it and it does it like something just happened right where the man if you wrote it oh no that was New Bedford that was it but let's see a bunch of things they couldn't pass so but this requires you I mean maybe

instead of saying when they voted put in once it is enacted in the law well the problem is if we vote to change the barrels to Pink and we start production of said pink back I was just going to say like that's problematic if we give 60 to 90 days so maybe that's the reason for the 21 days I don't know what's the cost thing no right it's like the train

we passed the train let's and we only if you gave 90 days but they stopped laying those tracks in like 60 days well what are you gonna do pick up the trash

will wait before we ever vote I know I know but you know what you get what it is there is a motion that the time frame be 60 days and it do you have to do you want to put a start date like should it be available well I think it should be when it's enacted you know the day the um because it's not law rentals it says finally approved that a day of approval

so it's counting day one is the day after approval well it says the committee has voted or the council to finally approve finally approved so it's the

yeah and if he doesn't oh because then the mayor can veto it right yeah and then what happens if

could theoretically override it you need six yeah yeah or if the mayor puts it in his pocket and the Laughing it becomes war after a certain period of time I think so can it be 60 days following the enactment should be very clear on when the clock starts ticking and that should be after the mayor signs that she's very explicit because that that can be a period of 10 days which can really change the the

target date here yeah well enactment is the day he signs it so is it could it be argued in law that is the date that's why I'm looking at him sometimes even after the math science something it it doesn't take effect right away yeah well only if it has to measure itself had a date in it let's just say in in November they say okay on April 1st we're going to start cutting the

deaf animals up and if and so it's long it could be enacted before it takes effect is what I'm saying right which is problematic particularly if there's money yeah right you're right about that's because you know what's a tax measure and in thinking about operations management and for modes of production I'm thinking about that's a problematic thing so what's the motion 60 days five percent and after enactment

60 days following enactment with five percent second second and all in favor any opposed okay motion passes the language in a is going to be 60 days follow an enactment with five percent okay imagine five percent of signatures yes about it correct the petition has to be signed by five percent of the voters to go to the ballot the other thing and I'm going to read it again shop is like what is it 501 but eight

three it seems like it only talks about the committee school committee it doesn't talk about what the council does because it goes out in the school committee or Council shall immediately consider its vote on the measure or part of it and if the measure is not rescinded the Society Council shall provide for the submission of the question for the termination Abode is either a special election

within well they're the ones that pass about a vote yeah I guess that's it yeah it because it does have school committee and city council but it's just the city council that asks right because the school committee couldn't ask for a vote yeah that's the thing I'm confused about what would you vote on if the school yeah in Theory the school committee should be struck out of the process because

they're not going to sway the body of the city eight six unless I didn't put these other ones on there real can go back to sections I left out eight six that's what we just talked about we talked about it we have to take that out so 8-6 required voter participation for any measure to be effective under the initiative procedure and for any measure to be declared null and void under a referendum procedure at

least 20 percent of the voters as of the most regular recent regular city election must vote at any election that includes on the ballot submission of the voters one or more initiative referendums I believe there was emotions and that there'd be no percentage requirement motion to strike by Dan seconded by Laura any further discussion all in favor aye anybody opposed motion passes to strike 8.6 the moving on

to 9 6 and 10-5 I'm sorry yeah the whole thing um uh 9 6 and 10 5. I very simply nine six is titled the periodic review of the charter I'm just going to go back and forth and 10 5 is 10 5 little n is also discussing the review of the charter I asked Corporation counsel the following question um here we go and let me find it would this be illegal I I asked about

this stuff I asked do we need nine five and ten n uh can we you know we have to have I asked him the difference between the two and do we need them both the five and ten year reviews contained in nine six and ten five n of the charter served the same purpose they require periodic review of the charter by a special committee whose purpose is to provide the city council with written

recommendations for possible Charter revisions or amendments although the recommendations of the special committee could lead to the submission of a special act to the state legislature neither the mayor nor the city council are required to take action on any of these recommendations and then he just went on to talk about the methods to revise or amend the charter and further discussions with him um

there's just two small differences in these One Is Us one was a five year one was a ten year in in nine in nine uh five in nine six it has time listen this is nine six periodic view of the charter we we're that's us no later than July 1st at 10-year intervals and each year ending in seven the mayor and the city council shall provide a review to be made of the city

Charter the reviews made by a special committee consisting of seven members all voters in the city city council President appoints four two of whom should be counselors no that's not us no no we're we're 10 n yeah that's what we are and so uh two of which our counselors and uh two of residents but not elected or appointed Office of the city mayor makes two appointments school committee Vice chair makes one the

appointing authority shall fill any vacancies within 21 days the special Committee of violence Report with the city clerk no later than August 1st in the following year of the year in which the committee is appointed the recommendations of the committee shall appear on the city council's agenda for Action before August 15th in Secure if not so scheduled by the city clerk the math should become the city council for

Action at the meeting following August 15th no other business shall be in order until such report has been acted on by roll call vote copies of recommendations we made for the public on the city website shall be available at no cost 10 5n despite section 9 6 that I just read no later than May 1st in the fifth year finally adoption of this Charter the mayor city council shall provide for

review to be made of the city Charter this review shall be made by a special committee nine members the mayor points five one of the school committee for our representatives of City businesses academic and Civic associations city council President appoints four one to include a city councilor one of the one member of the previous Charter Commission if able and willing to serve provided however if us Charter

commission members able and willing they can choose another counselor two representatives of established neighborhood or Social Service organizations all members of the kitty committee shall be voters except as noted here in no other City officials or employees shall be appointed to the committee appointments shout to the most practical extent ensure Geographic and demographic diversity of the committee's

membership City attorney is ex-officio special committee hold a minimum of two public hearings violence Report with the city court by June 30th following the year recommendations shall be posted on the City website yeah first of all I'm confused by the two sections that's correct number one let me just say for for this committee that we're all part of now I think this should take

this should be reviewed every five years and that's what channel does I think so too and I don't think we need to special Charter committees I I like how they have them picked I don't care how we pick them but I don't think we need two I think we should have on every five year but I also thought there should have been an amendment procedure but I mean I don't know in terms of what

like uh I'm trying to think like like this re let's just I don't want to rehash the recall but what I want to say is that recall Fiasco with the recall question and the candidates on the same ballot caused expense legal fees and Court action that could have been remedied by an amendment no I don't know that's just me thinking out loud it's I just or do we just have every five years review it fix

it or don't fix it I I would say every five years this this type of process was this type of committee should convene and should make recommendations but I think there should be and I I don't know what that's why there's one two three lawyers here four yeah well he's not here right now right and he's an extra your number correct with an opinion well stop for the purposes of this discussion right I'm more concerned

with the three voting members of this body okay uh I think that there ought to be an easier way in the review process to get our recommendations to the ballot well you can't conflict with the general laws on home petition Charters or Charter you know home rule petitions and I'm not suggesting that we user them in any way right all I'm saying is and I hate to rehash this we're going to let you down but

the reality was when the consult the way the consultant made this Review Committee sound that in fight in five years there would be a Review Committee the Review Committee would make recommendations such as we're doing now those recommendations would go to the city council for consideration the city council would then review those recommendations and decide if any which of the recommendations to send to

the ballot that's the way it was explained to us by the Consultants that language for whatever reason and I will take as much responsibility and any of the other eight members that language those Provisions never made it in right to the original to the current child right I would like to see if it's legal that type of provision though I don't necessarily like giving the city council

the exclusive authority to decide what goes on the ballot however I do like the idea that the recommendations of a committee like this one that those recommendations within the law be able to go to the ballot quicker I uh no I I'm with you I think what I don't think we need two I like the nine member and I like the nine member because then the poem is five five and if you have nine people

absolutely you always have fun I like how it's picked I like that the mayor city council president and by Statute it kind of picks you know from the community what I don't like is that there's two I like the idea of every five years um it's reviewed I not to speak disparagingly of every but anybody this committee should have been been formed earlier to have more time to review so

if somebody if if a if a new mayor and counselor sworn in in January this called for us to be selected by May of that year and we could have had that whole one year to meet I I think more adherence to that you know that the the committee needs to start meeting this is the 2022 committee and it's the 2022 committee because 2022 was the five-year Mark yeah so by Statute but we didn't

start meeting till 2023. correct and so and I'm sure not through anybody's but that's it I think if we could have a nine piano review picked the way it has it intent 10 um and but selected and they start meeting by May 1st of that year right um and then their recommendations like you said like let's say in five years they review it and they go boy that 2022 committee did such a fabulous job we

only think one thing needs revising because that's exactly what they're going to think um that is exactly that's exactly what they're going to think at that five year you're right that recommendation and only that recommendation gets on the ballot and then we have a document attached to the Charter that is the Amendments right because that's amending the ballot instead of rewriting the whole thing I I

mean Frankly Speaking and I said this when we talked about the review process but I guess with state law and everything it would require my first preference would have been for this Review Committee to be elected as the original China commission was no for some reason I get I was never really Queer on the reasons why for some reason that didn't or couldn't happen well well the way we got here is not my

first preference it certainly better than um you know if we can't if the Review Committee can't be elected without getting thousands of signatures and all of that stuff then this is the next best one 10n 10 end outlines the selection process pretty deliberately appointment appointment process appointments oh because what's intended is this is the only five year review correct after this it's going to

be 77th or ten years which I don't understand the seventh yeah

I just I'm just amazed by this Dad I know you've been believe me no I'm just saying though yeah 657.

because you had three Consultants that came in gave us boiler Point language said that this is all combinations of what we've done and on the charters here you go fill in the blank here's my bill for forty thousand dollars and a majority of them accepted it I'd like to I just don't get the 96 where I'd like to make a motion it doesn't make sense I'd like to make a motion I like him I'd

like to make a motion to strike nines John's making a motion to strike nine six John's motion yeah John's motion to strike 9-6 uh that that's the ten years that's the ten year okay it's been seconded all in favor okay any opposed no stricken butt and then a new motion I'd like to make a new motion that I see I didn't wanna we're gonna take all that I'll tell you what I want to

take I don't want to I don't want it to be nine six but I want a section titled periodic review of the charter and I want it to be six so I think well we struck just the paragraph so now you could have a new nine foot right so I my motion is the new 9-6 B language to this effect every five years appointed as outlined in 10-5 and and the the same language how the

recommendation procedure goes recommendations go it right now our report goes to the the city council and then to the mayor and then if our recommendation is to have this acted upon it goes to the AG's Municipal law for conflict reviews then it comes back and it and it'll go on a ballot if that's the recommendation and approval that's kind of what do we just make end to new nine six make and the new 9-6

take take and out put it over to nine six but make it every five years yeah because you're going to want to get rid of all right can we get language that says that our recommendations upon review of whoever in the state that is inside of reviewing it I think we gotta understand that procedure better than we do now yeah I printed it up I'll send it to everybody the municipal

the ages office Municipal all right so my name is well my new motion is section 96 periodic review of the charter it's the language in 10 5n and it'd be every five years any uh for the discussion periodic review is the language in 10 5 n motions been made was seconded by Laura what happens to the recommendations then we'll do another paragraph for that but we're for now it's just periodic review

kick your committee every five years we'll get like 10 and with disappointments yes yes okay motion's been made and seconded all in favor aye anybody opposed okay so motion passes that nine six periodic review be the language in 10 5n which means 10 5n no longer exists and we will come back to do the rest at the next meeting any discussion all in favor okay oh nice look at us I know I put a lot on

the agenda but look