The Committee on Public Works and Transportation met on February 1, 2022, to discuss several curb cut requests and underground conduit installations. A key theme throughout the meeting was the impact of curb cuts on street parking and the importance of complete applications and proper patching for road work. City Engineer Dan Aguiar, new to his role, provided detailed insights and recommendations, which were highly praised by the councilors. The committee addressed a request from Michelle Aruda of 37 Chicago Street for a 10-foot curb removal to create a horseshoe driveway. After extensive discussion regarding parking congestion, fire hydrants, and the need for a detailed schematic drawing, the item was tabled to allow the applicant to submit the requested sketch. Another curb cut request at 248 Hancock Street, which had been illegally completed, was approved with the condition that the owner pay a double permit fee within 30 days, or face enforcement for berm reinstallation at their cost. A request from Brinnez Corporation for a curb cut at 1311 County Street was approved despite Councilor Pelletier's opposition due to concerns about lost parking spaces. However, a request for a curb cut at 1040 Eastern Avenue was denied. Residents, including Cindy Thievs, spoke against it, citing severe parking issues in the area and the applicant's failure to provide a complete application or attend the meeting. The committee also approved three underground conduit installations by Mass Electric Company on South Main Street/Bradford Avenue, Morgan Street, and Plymouth Avenue. These approvals were conditioned on specific patching standards, with the South Main Street/Bradford Avenue project requiring patching from curb to center line, and the other two requiring the electric company to work with the city engineer for adequate patching. Councilor Kadeem Chanwin suggested a future resolution to standardize road opening permit procedures.
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1:22this item was tabled on july 20th 2021 uh i would entertain a motion to lift it from motion made to girl table second favorite hi order michelle laruda 37 chicago street for the removal of 16 feet of curving in addition to an existing 16 foot driveway for a total of 32 feet at 37 chicago street we have opponents and opponents we'll hear from the proponents and the person making the request first
2:04you get the engineers down the same time okay
2:42so this has been before us before there's been different questions that have been brought up i know we discussed how many oh i'm sorry could you please both state your name and your address michelle aruda 37 chicago street foreign mass good evening my name is dan aguiar i'm the city engineer with addresses here at one government center for river massachusetts thank you so there have been different issues that
3:11have been addressed in terms of obviously misuruta wanting this uh curb removal and then opponents on this issue would anybody like to speak for us or ask any questions i'm gonna wait okay um i i guess if i could madam chair just through the engineer i know he he's given us um a memo and a number of items which number one i i want to thank him and applaud him for this because i think
3:39this is something that's very helpful to the committee and we don't typically see or get um so number one kudos to you uh but can you just talk talk us through what what your i guess your recommendations or what your visit has uh shown just just to get it on the record so um only being involved in city business for the last two weeks i was just received this information and
4:01was asked to go out and review it so i am unaware of any past conversations or any presentations that have been made on my initial inspection which is detailed in the memo that i supplied to the to the committee um my initial comment and knowledge of that neighborhood would be that any additional curb cuts in that area would uh would eliminate much needed parking for that specific corner
4:26of chicago street when it wraps around to stafford road there is a commercial use at that corner and then i know especially on weekends that is heavily relied upon for off street parking there has also been a number of new single-family homes built directly across the street that have all complied specifically with their curb opening permits and the amount of parking spaces that they needed to provide
4:48so with the existing commercial use within that 300 foot range of stafford road the new single family homes that have been constructed i think the elimination of any growth would be a detriment to that area of the neighborhood that being said if the council was inclined to permit any additional curb opening i think an engineer drawing of some respect should be submitted to you so
5:11that you can look at the efficiency of where maybe where spacing can take place to minimize the amount of loss so without having that document for you to look at as submitted by the applicant or should be submitted by the apple camp i i would hesitate to recommend to the council that they should allow any additional curb opening to take place now chicago street has fire hydrants on both sides
5:39for some reason i don't know why but on both sides i don't know what the protocol is during blizzards as to which side they have are allowed to park on and which side they aren't allowed to park on i believe that one of the fire hydrants is at the end of missouri's property going down chicago is that correct yeah it's on the end so i guess the point i'm making is larissa okay
6:07would you like to come down and join us mrs forever please so i guess my question is you can't park with an x number of feet of a fire hydrant to begin with that's correct nor should you park within a certain distance to the edge of an existing driveway or the corner of an intersection so without that information being submitted to you it would be difficult to you to make an informed decision upon
6:38where can this curb cut take place if it should at all so without having that information i would recommend that that the council not act on this yet i could be wrong but isn't is it is it an ordinance the distance is there any distance you have to be away from the driveway yeah we don't have that an audience not an ordinance but there is a safety aspect of as you all have driveways if someone
7:01drive pops right up to the edge of your driveway it makes it difficult to maneuver in and out so regardless of whether there's an ordinance or not when you look at the amount of spacing that is available you make an engineered and logical decision of okay if parking spaces are to be 18 19 or 20 feet wide if i can fit two in between a horseshoe driveway and allow two feet of overhang to the
7:25driveways then you would so without playing that game of variables of where spaces can be where the two driveways should be located you also have two adjacent driveways to budding properties that are very close to the property line that should also be taken into consideration so we're not engineering this driveway for the city but a plan like that could easily be submitted for your review if you decided
7:52yes we're inclined to to move in that direction mrs ferrer the fire hydrant on chicago they're on both sides yeah we have that a lot throughout the city so it's when the water department places these fire hydrants if they hit ledge they have to move it to the other side but you still have to follow the same rules so chicago street you have to park on the north side okay
8:16and you have to be a minimum of 10 feet from a fire hydrant and the fire hydrant on this this property side is going down chicago not on the upper side of chicago correct not sure the one on the when you're going down chicago on the right hand side no when you're going down away from stafford road if you turn off of stafford road and go down chicago her
8:39house is on the right and i believe that hydrant you're probably right because there isn't any fire hydrants in the beginning of chicago off the staff so it's in close proximity to the end of her property i don't know exactly where the hydrant is located when i drove by today there's a lot of stuff on the snow but again the location of that hydrant would be important for you to look at
9:05before you made a determination so if there is a hydrant there and someone couldn't park there anyway then that may lead you in the direction of okay adding an extra driveway would not eliminate a space because of the proximity to the existing and that's where i think my mind is going that if that horseshoe were to go in the opposite direction stop at her driveway and go in the direction of where the
9:26fire hydrant is might allow for an opening to happen it wouldn't interfere with higher up on the street or any of the parking that's there because as you say nobody can park there anyways it may not but without that information it would be difficult for you to make that determination mrs rowe in your opinion do you mind if i just say something real quick um so the fire hydrant is in the corner
9:52down by the corner so my house is the second house up it's not in the corner of my driveway so is that still too close it's all the way down the street so in front of your house for instance which would be here the 37 yeah so from this driveway for instance okay to this driveway are there any hydrants in front of your property no okay so no so the hydra is over here
10:16yeah and then there's one all the way over here next to the new building for people's incorporated so if there are no hydrants directly in front of 37 or within the driveways of the abutting properties the hydrant location would would have no bearings correct because of the demo i'm sorry you want to continue uh yeah so my other question was just uh to refresh my memory was how many off
10:39street parking spots you have with the current driveway so it looks like you can fit at least two or four back-to-back is that accurate so and then you asked the question and the i think we had this discussion the last time we met was talking about and i think actually madam chairwoman you brought it up was moving the location of the driveway and i think you had exception to that or
11:01said you weren't in favor of that um because we had talked about going in front of your house as opposed to the the law i didn't understand what she was trying to say about that so you're trying to do a horseshoe to the left okay if you were facing your property yeah i think i think she was she was saying and come incorporate your driveway now that way okay um
11:24which would still allow you to to have i think the opening next to the business that is requiring a lot of wall street parking but i don't want to speak for the chairwoman but i know that there was discussion and i thought you had said that you were opposed to that that you'd yeah i didn't care for the way um that would just be too close to the house when i have all that open area to
11:47the other side and if you would do the horseshoe going to the left to the left of my house you can fit three to four cars depending on the size to the right you can only fit two so if i do the horseshoe to the right you eliminate one if you if i do the horseshoe going to the left you're going to eliminate two because it's a bigger space
12:18yes thank you so so you want to do something like this yes so over here if i do something like that yes okay yes so right here you have a party if you were to go this way but right here you can get three to four depending on the size of the car exactly so if you go this way you can eliminate more parking i don't want to do that well
12:39you want to put in a new 16 foot somewhere over here okay the 16 foot i want to clarify it's only going to be 10. originally when i did the paperwork it was 16 not knowing how much i was going to need but it's only going to be 10. so this is only going to be 10. yes so then how much curb would be left in between driveway to driveway um there is
12:59enough because the other person who came out to measure that was here at the other meeting he said there was enough for one vehicle for one for one yes one again i would suggest that a schematic that's doesn't have to be professionally engineered drawn but something should be submitted illustrating where is this horseshoe to be because i was under the impression that the horseshoe was going to wrap around
13:28in the front of the house like normal horseshoe driveways would and without having something in the record that says this is what i'm doing this is what we're approving then i would be hesitant to recommend to the committee to to move it no i mean we're at the stencil i guess uh i guess they want more paperwork uh are you willing to do that uh um i guess i
13:59i mean rather than be denied yeah i know we're just coming to something rudimentary yep that shows okay we are only going to lose one on-street space then that would let this board make a more educated decision okay i just wish they would have said that the last one i understood yeah i wasn't involved yeah and i'm trying to help facilitate okay both sides of of this of this conversation
14:23uh so if you could provide that i don't think you're going to get a driver to put in this time of year anyway so i think we do have a little bit of time to deal with so if you could provide that sketch then maybe the board can make a more educated decision so just a simple sketch that shows the distance between curve opening here because your driveway extends beyond the curb opening already
14:45it's a couple of feet bigger i think your driveway's about 20 the curb opening is 16. people get confused with driveways and curb openings they're two different things the curb opening at the street is what this commission and what the engineering department looks at not the size of your driveway on your private property what happens on your private property is up to you the zoning board site plan
15:08review that that's not the purview of this board so if you come back with a simple sketch that has a dimension from the edge of this driveway to the edge of this crib cut or curb cut cut and then you put your 10 feet in here in a manner that allows for a full parking space then you could state that we're only losing one space yeah but there is because the other engineer that was here
15:32he did all that measurements so nothing was i know he went out and made a measurement he did and he said okay 32 feet i believe is what you came up with dimension from here to here yep and then he said okay so if we put a line over here a line over here you take 10 feet out to do your driveway then you measure from here to here to see if the car was
15:50i haven't been given that i get i was given a plan that showed 42 feet and then i went to look at it again myself yeah that's what was supposed to be brought to the table i thought that was already resolved that's what we talked about that day when he came to my property i was unaware of that i was given a sketch that showed the measurement of 42 feet
16:09who was it that went and checked the property i think john perry had tj sullivan in the engineering department prepare a sketch just of what that dimension is not where the driveway was going or where the space could be provided yeah and i don't believe anything was brought back to us so we haven't seen anything at this point so probably that would be the um unfortunately the best case scenario is
16:35that you're going to come by the engineering office and i can sit down and help you make this recommendation it's just frustrating and i know it's not your fault because you aren't here it's just you know this has been going on now a year just for simple curve removal that i think is simple because there's plenty of parking on the street yeah is your driveway going to begin at the property line
17:05the other guy's property line going up that's what we're going to find out on this sketch how far off of the driveway i think it's i think it comes out to like two feet off from his so then what you need to ensure is that your curb opening falls within the projection lines of your property boundary i'm pretty sure there's a fence in between yeah yeah so it's definitely maybe it may not
17:30be the property corner but if that's what you're going to rely on then that's what you can submit so it would be good to provide as much buffer from this driveway that you could and minimize the amount you know a parking space in between your two sections of driveway doesn't need to be bigger than 18 feet okay i think it is though well it would be great if it was 18 feet
17:54but i would rather see 18 feet here and give them additional footage here yeah just to get off of that driveway i think that's some of the problem being too close to uh the other onus fence as well but uh you know we almost agreed on uh we were talking about four feet and that still wouldn't work for you right i mean honestly i was hoping to have that
18:25i mean what why would it be an issue if it's too close to his property i mean i'm just curious what would be though that would give him more room when he's getting out there's no car over there to the corner because he can't pop to the point yeah so that gives him more room to charge especially if there's a car over there all right well that's one of the problems
18:52because he can speak for himself when he comes down and one other thing uh uh yeah the other side of the the street you get a new pocket from here to corner it's way about 30 feet can that be taken care of for another parking spot if it's more than 20 feet that's because the 20 feet is not enough and that's why we have to go up a little bit more so we
19:23can go as far as 30 feet um to give enough room so you can see the incoming traffic if you push it back to the corner and the car parks there and your visibility is going to be yep you know it has to be moved up for a reason that's when the church was there and everything else has been that way for a long time so yeah the seniors were there but they're
19:48out of here you can take a look at this another spot anyway um i have something that i could uh bring up too that needs to be addressed on that street it's a one-way and there's a lot of cars that are going the opposite way and that's going to be a bad accident waiting to happen there's no sign over there that says one way i think there's a sign down
20:09chicago street that says one way but not on the top so there's a lot of cars coming up and it's a one-way street well whoa i'm sure laura can look at the signage heading west is what you mean so the vehicle's traveling east yeah because there shouldn't be any no no so it doesn't necessarily need to be a sign at stafford road because everybody's going yeah yeah you know but i think they used
20:35to be one of the sections i think there used to be one over there but anybody looking at this sign drowning on staffordshire is only going to be going yes yeah they're coming up the other way down at this next intersection there absolutely should be assigned so so how many cars are you gonna park there if things go the right way um honestly i whenever my mom comes over whenever my
20:54sister comes over my uh son's girlfriend comes over they all talk we try to park everybody into my driveway right now we're hopping the grass because right now i don't care about this grass right here because if i do this then obviously i don't care about the grass because i'm trying to put in the driveway but i always take an account i'm not one of those people that's going to put in
21:17the driveway and i'm going to have my people talking on the street because i know what that's like all right uh i'd like to hear from the opposition and i guess you know get a schematic i guess sit down with this guy we can review it and take it from there and how much longer is that gonna take do you yeah thank you um that's gonna i depend on you actually
21:48on how soon you get the schematic done but there'll also need to be an amendment showing that it's 10 feet instead of the original 16. so that amendment will have to be made to it i can do that tomorrow i'll be in tomorrow okay that's perfect tell us just in terms of night and i agree with miss aggie i think we need to get the schematic drawing just so we understand what what's going on so
22:10just for my own clarification though there's are you willing and i know you're parking in that grass area so you're going to make that your driveway so really it's just how much of an opening do you really need to get the cars in there right yeah so you said you were looking for 10 and i think we had the conversation but i don't recall what the response was um is there a willingness to do you know
22:31some over on and um your house is over here so okay some on the on the left side and some on the on the right or are you looking to get all of it over on the right i think yeah yeah yep something like that yeah yeah yeah yep
22:59yeah yeah and hopefully the sketch will illustrate that there's the ability to park a vehicle in between the two driveways and still provide some buffer to the adjacent driveway as well and then my other question obviously just looking at this and not i know we got the scale up there but not to scale we can only fit currently two cars right so we yeah right now it's a 42 foot dimension in between driveway to driveway
23:23so if we put in a 10 foot driveway that leaves us with 30 we take out a you know a 20-foot parking spot that still leaves us across running the side of the existing driveways so it appears as though with a 10 foot driveway you would only be losing one space do you currently park any cars on the on the street now or they're all on street parking it's always on my driveway
23:47and if you can even ask people have cameras i always park on the driveway or in the grass or anybody who comes to my house uh for example there was one day my son's girlfriend came over and she happened to pop across the street where one of my neighbors parked and i said nope take your cop bring it in so the demand really is not necessarily for the folks living in the residence
24:07it's for people visiting right visiting yep if i have like a lot of people who come over all the time my niece and stuff you know so that way they don't take out parking in the street and eventually when my son is looking to get a boat so we have more space if he was to get a ball your son resides with you yes okay hey and then we're going to look at the
24:35possibility of maybe squeezing out one more space on the opposite side if that sign can be moved without wrist in which case no parking spaces would be lost if you had one more yeah here from the proponents so i'm sorry where's that sign it you won't see it here oh because it's close to the corner actually yeah okay whatever's better for you if you want to speak right there
25:33okay thank you and uh i'm here on behalf of the uh association give me your address please uh 266 kennedy street thank you what we have here is a lot of questions
26:09what i did was excuse me i did a sketch of the uh the street the location of the houses the denomination of the families in the houses and basically we have uh the first hydrant is on the right hand side which is okay that's a regular a red red hydrant the other hydrant is a main feed from the to the cha from the tower the tank this reservoir you know stand pipe
26:44that's up there that's a 12 inch main that's the main that comes out of it and feeds distribution one two three four five six that's on the north side of chicago street and predominantly on one and two on stafford road one and two has two driveways that's it when that driveway is parked a car and a park they have to go park in the this park driveway okay this first thing that
27:27no parking sign from here to the corner this is forever it's probably around 50 feet almost it's right on the telephone pole so that's that answers that one three four and five and six i'll have double driveways so now we have four on that side we have double driveways and our double driveway uh mr again is what how long well the curb opening is 16 feet 16. the driveway would have to be a
28:03minimum of 18 feet to fit two vehicles side by side all right so we have that and the the round circles that you see on the left side are telephone poles little poles are predominantly 100 feet of pot okay so now we have one two we have 300 feet and in that course of 300 feet we have one two three four driveways calculate that one out this bag yeah if you're good all the driveways are right
28:35here that's right you can see now on this side of the street this is all single family except for number six and that's for the uh i i don't want to say the handicapped people it's a group home it's a group home whatever it is right okay now they have their own pocket in the backyard no problem all these houses here on the left side have no problem popping but they take up
29:02all these spots on that road so we got 300 feet 100 200 almost 250 feet we'll see okay all that they're allowed 16 foot there's nothing wrong with that they're fine now we come to the south side at the stop sign uh at the uh at the corner here we have eight apartments in that house with the uh and then they have the the stuff for the shop okay how many parking spaces are there
29:34in the lot for those eight apartments uh six i believe six so now jump jump back over here those two all those people some of them have garages some of them don't but when they're filled their guests have to park on the street okay now they can't park in front of the driveway okay let's go back to this side from the corner we have eight apartments and we have the store the the beauty shop
30:08the first house is number one and that is a single family and this is this lady's house right here right there's another single family then there's a three family a three family and there's a two family now that's a total of 18 apartments 18 apartments with two automobiles and each one is 36 cars the three family and the other three family have a driveway limited as soon as the landlord or the owner
30:51pulls in that driveway that's it nobody else can go anywhere they're all going to pop down the street so you've got 36 tentatively 36 cars that's going to occupy on the street because everybody has two cars you have two cars your family yeah oh okay you'll have two cars three in three oh yeah well then you're a city councilor okay you'll have to account now you have one car
31:23and you want to put a boat uh is that what you said the last time i wanted to get a boat and he has a car and where does he live oh okay good i thought it was you your brother or something uh so then here we have we have a congestion of uh houses uh and you know it would have been all right if the the the church uh the the
31:48diocese didn't screw people and sell all this land uh it's nice to get money from the city however it's taken up all these spaces let me ask you a question because i'm feeling like i'm hearing that most of the people that occupy these homes have driveways they park in and most of the vehicles parked on the street are transit am i
32:23well the three families the two three families the landlord takes up the one spot in front of the in his driveway and that's it okay so you've got you've got driveways correct you've got a two family that's going to be at least four cars so maybe if they can pop one in the driveway i don't even know if that has a driveway or not we'll give it to the benefit of the
32:47doubt but what i'm getting at is you've got tentatively almost 36 automobiles on the south side that have to find a parking spot um if we're looking at that same argument with regards to these multi-families let's get back to the corner right and look at the eight unit house right which would be 16 spaces correct but he already used he has of six spaces yeah yeah six so once those six
33:15are filled then they're gonna go up the street okay so it's it's a combination of the neighborhoods that's right it's not the multi families down the street our flooding industry no no no it's just right neighborhood issue that's right that we need to keep right so let's look at that as a whole this specific parking issue and spacing needs to be looked at from a budding driveway to a budding driveway already
33:42and what the loss of parking would be with the institution of a proposed 10-foot driveway right i think we all agree conceptually that it's one space but you can only park another car here this i'm not saying i'm just saying how many are you going to lose we can we can go a mile and a half in each direction and come up with a total number of spaces that's right all we
34:03control right now is driveway to driveway right and the loss of the production we also got to contend with this side of the street driveway to drive away to driveway that's now this thing there's two there's two houses side by side that are have the driveways side by side so that's 30 cent feet but that's better than having two 16's with the 12 foot that's true but and that's why i'm saying we need a
34:29drawing that looks at from here to here and how many spaces it's a very narrow scope of what needs to be done that's right number of spaces to be lost right for this committee to make an educated decision let me ask a question so at the present time is there anybody living in this on chicago street that has any i have complained all the time people saying i gotta park down further
34:56the guy with the beauty parlor basically i
35:10i have four people that have to park outside that there's four people at the park they get parked there's no parking for them i have a beauty parlor we have two business things there but tied up for the for the business that you can't parking business owners we have a hydrant over there where they can't park well the biggest factor is that they don't want to park on the end of
35:32the street they had a place here this woman's never had a house here i owned a place for 40 years that was at all vegas when they built business put in they were able to talk with any barriers they cannot talk to there's cars and houses all over they change the dynamics this business has been around for years he's having problems and people saying whoa what he says watch out at
36:10yeah i live at 250 kennedy street florida can you please go to the mic okay i've had the property for 40 years i've had parking problems forever the church when they knocked the church down they relieved the problems now we have a bunch of new homes now think about our fathers built these street actors all over the city never thought about parking now they built these two these single-family homes
36:42i went after them talked to mike dion who talked to the contractor we need more than two parking places for each house there now you see some of them trying to put a little extra drive along their their garage to put another parking place they're already facing their problem now if they get company they they got the three bedroom houses everybody if you've got kids they're going to have a car sooner or later
37:05i'm trying to nip this thing you can lose one parking place it's valuable so valuable to me then having the factor that oh yeah well one part no because that's between my property put it at the other end of the property and now let's see other people have it's going to block it's going to ruin the people that want to come here they're going to say look i have to park
37:26down the other end which is not that far away but convenient i've been there before she came around yes yeah so in reality if mrs ferreira determines that that sign can be moved to open up the parking space that actually gives you a knocking space closer to your um
38:02the station which i don't want it in the first place but if it had to be put it on the other end of the property don't put it on my side because i'm having trouble people coming in and out the driveway and they will come in and they'll block it they park so close to the driveway and now if they it's it's the fact there isn't i don't i can't see it on my side of the
38:25you wanna i mean i've been there and i've seen the problems we have one place makes a big difference people think oh yeah but even though you're going to put on the other side of the street it ain't there i'm more concerned of not having it on i don't care what the other part you got another fine but it's between that property those two properties is where the real factor is nobody in the street has
38:48more than 16 feet i may not agree with the argument or the assertion however if the concern is that mr cevigne has a concern about the location of the driveway would you be immenuable to taking your 10 feet and putting it here and having a total curb opening of 26. that's what i was suggesting i have to remove all that landscaping from over there i i understand but you also have to understand that this committee is
39:17granting you an additional credit card so there may be there may be some give and take and then that would leave the ability for that one less space to be here between your new driveway edge and mr sevigny's driveway so rather than keep that one space in between your horseshoe moving it over to here so yes whatever landscape amenities you have located in this front of this property would have to be relocated
39:44but that would be i mean to me that seems like a resolution to both sides and if mr sevigny and mr speaker if you'd like to look at what i'm talking about i can bring it to you
40:06so the impact is
40:19so you can either have one spot adjacent to your driveway and have the extra space or that driveway all that space moving between her right now it's not going to work out because he's not going to work that would be silly on his paw because it would be closer to his curve and then he's going to say the car is too close to his curb that wouldn't make any sense
40:43it would do this this would still be an ensuite space in between driveway 1 2. i'm suggesting that she just drag that 10 over here and rather than leave a space in between two breathable spaces yeah right they're not getting you're going to lose one space well no matter how you do it
41:26if you're amendable to a compromise if this idea that he that he's suggesting stops that from being abutting your driveway you've got that space now you don't have that abutment if the sign can be moved to get that parking space back on the opposite side of the street you haven't lost any parking you'll still have additional parking and be able to pull in and do what you need to do in your yard but his history
42:02connecting it like this this driveway would be probably within five feet of specifically now if you take this same ten-foot driveway and put it here but she can now square that off and then what would have been a space here is now left with the space here and then they have additional space over here by moving that sign 20 feet then we wouldn't lose the space right right because at one point i believe you also
42:30did make the statement that ultimately you may down the road turn all of that into parking in which case you you would lose your um well i wouldn't i wouldn't touch that landscape um but the question the point that he made up i understand what he's trying what he's trying to say when i decided to do this i have signatures from the neighbors there wasn't any neighbor who opposed
42:57except i do remember okay you had a and like i said i lived on and i'm sorry you weren't here for the other meeting so you don't know this but i lived on rocklin street i lived on palm street i know what it's like to have tight parking i know what it's like to carry an infant down a block to park we don't have that issue over here now if i do
43:18the driveway how he's telling me to do it that's going to be a problem and it's going to be a problem with his tenants because now they're not going to be able to get out of the driveway if a car is parked on that side they're not going to be able to churn out easily because i ask people they're like oh michelle i would actually like if you did it over here because then this would
43:37open it up and i would have more room to turn in your opinion sir is there ample footage that that won't be a problem yeah because right now it's 42.
43:48so you'd still have 30. 10 feet of driveway that leaves us 32 for a parking space and some buffer room before we hit mr cevigne's driveway so that would be 32-20 that would lead to theoretically you could leave six feet on either side of that space if you chose to where you strike the lines in between so yes but you also know how people park and they don't follow the rules so
44:12when the salon is there on a saturday everybody's parked in the front of my property during the week there's nobody not one car in front of my property and i have five spots in front of my property so with those two cars parked on that side those people were already having an issue getting out of their driveway so if i he's trying to tell me to start no um now i'm gonna stop pissing off the
44:36people in his tenants and that's not what i'm trying to do i'm just looking for a simple curb removal i mean i don't want to piss people off i already pissed him off and that's not what i'm trying to do i'm just looking for a simple curve removal that you know i just thought okay i'm gonna do u-shape i'm gonna you know utilize all the space i have that's all i'm
44:54trying to do that's dead space there's nothing there before i purchased that home he wanted to buy that property a part of that property so he can extend his law right now he has more than 16 feet i thought you're only supposed to have a 16 feet driveway he has more so did he pull a permit i don't know he has five cars possible i think i think in fairness that property has been there
45:17for so many years we didn't even have half of the conditions that we have today so yeah i mean that's not even really positive and i understand that and i understand that he has five cars parked over there one of them is a boat he also has four cars in the street the neighbor across from him only has one car in the street the one on the side of him has his daughter's car in the street
45:38the one on the side of him has two cars and they're going to be leaving soon because they're looking for a house how many cars on front of my house none we had a blizzard not one of his tenants had to go park blocks away they all parked across from his house or across from my house because there was plenty of parking and how do i know that i took pictures
46:04because i see all the cars that park okay yes can i say a few more words okay uh i'm i'm not opposed to the fact of her cutting she's got a lot of land on the other side she just wants to put it towards me where it's going to affect me not it's going to stick want to drive to make the driveway the other way find it but don't put it down so it takes up
46:29i need those two spots but what way are you talking about all the way down to the other side i had the idea that you couldn't drive make the driveway the other way you need a screen driveway just make it the other way why make it why make it towards the property it's going to affect it's going to affect my property i don't care if i get another target across the street
46:50it's affecting that people want to park on that side of the street matter of fact i have somebody want to put it they they going for a you want to get a tournament for handicapped so that's another possible is i'm going to lose i mean and maybe she wants to put the handicap i'll put the handicap on her properly and then i i won't have to worry about it again can i suggest that we
47:15work on the sketch yes i was going to look at the sign so that we can we can look at apples and apples for the next time that you can meet and review this because we can go around and around with different scenarios so you get something in front of you that you can act upon formally then we're going to get nowhere yeah i would agree that we should do that at
47:35this point to be honest with you and perhaps perhaps even two diagrams for um we can't make everyone happy the petitioner has the right to petition the council that's what you can act on abutting concerns in part of your decision making but it's up to the applicant to provide you with the appropriate information for you to make that determination correct so at this point um we'd have the amendments
48:09i'll take a motion i'd like to make a point of information what's that sir well if you look at the drawing you notice that on the north side of chicago street it is recessed compared to stafford road on the up on the south side that's because when you come down stafford road from the time and when you try to turn into the street it's more than a 45 degree angle i would
48:38say i'm not an engineer but and so you will never be able to swing inside there now with a truck so that's going to be another problem you move that you move that no parking from here to corner down 10 feet 12 feet you're not going to gain anything because you're going to hinder these traffic to start off with when you come out of oswell street you go to shoot
49:04across you're close to that curve on the left hand side and then you predominantly go straight along there so i know chairman plus plus yeah yeah we could go round and round all night i think we need mrs ferreira to do her due diligence come back to us with the information the good information she always does the engineer to do his part the diagram to be made and then we'll come back and make the
49:33final decision because you're right at this point we're just all going to just keep spinning our wheels and we're not going to get anywhere so with that i will accept the motion table second um now we have to do the motion table and it comes back to committee as opposed to nothing here so it's going to stay i'm going to come back here okay all in favor aye aye
50:08um i need him please actually if yes oh that's right
50:30yeah because we're also going to need you for the underground conduits yeah that's fine yeah okay so number four is
50:44248 hancock street removal of 23 feet of curbing in addition to an existing 20 foot 23 foot driveway for a total of 46 feet at 248 hancock street tabled on 10 19 21.
51:00second all in favor aye any proponents or opponents on this one if i may that job was already done uh whether they pull a permit i don't know and there was no cube there was a burn and she missed the last meeting and she pulled them out premature and here we are we're stuck should we come to the last meeting or this meeting and mr perry had said it's well just to give you an example on
51:40plymouth avenue uh someone pulled out a bunch of curbs to park trucks and they made them put the curb back and then they made them reapply and then they took them out well basically this is the same thing but mr perry had said well we could find her and that's maybe what we should do i mean but something's going to be done she's done it illegally she took him out
52:11uh did the guy pull the permit to pull him out who knows we don't know did you send the job no i was making the just just just uh so i mean stating that she was do we just want to let it go i don't think we should let it go i mean i agree things are not right i mean i agree i don't care if you give a
52:36to a dollar fine or whatever or give an opportunity to put it back and redo it which she's not going to do but she should be but there's no sidewalk so there's no curbing to put back that's what's going to happen put the burn back put the burn back no no no you're quite fine i'm just i'm just cleaning yeah yeah yeah well that's what i said there was no cure that's
52:56more expensive so mrs perry says yeah she had a beer and then she taught the whole thing that that's the whole thing either we decided to let her get away with it or come in and and square things away one way or the other that's it and we should send a letter letting her know she missed two meetings and she done this illegally and she got to come down to face the music that's it
53:20dude yield oh yeah thank you council kadeem chanwin uh we had talked about this in the last meeting i i agree with council pellets here i think there's number one we've got to make a determination do we want to allow the curb cut right then that i think dictates the action that we'll take subsequently because we're gonna if we're gonna approve the curb cut then we're not gonna make somebody put the burn back
53:39just to cut it that doesn't make any sense but um other communities typically have if you do the work before pulling a permit it's double the fine right so you've got to come in and i think our audiences may say that i'm not sure where we stand but i i agree with council pelts here that there should be some type of fine levied right so if it's double the
53:59permit fee that would be for a curb cut then i'm i'm in favor of that unless there's some other mechanism through ordinance that would allow us to find um at a higher higher rate but you know i don't see it so i think the discussion needs to be with us right now though do we do we support it and just just reading what you know mr aggia had written down i think based on his initial inspection
54:20of the uh of the property that you know he would make a recommendation that we we approve the uh the curb cut so i don't know do you see do you have i mean i guess through you to to council pelts here is there a concern with the cut itself outside of how they went about doing the cut no it's probably going to be all right but the thing is that
54:44you know we could have straightened this out she's just ignoring us like uh nothing happened you know what i mean that's just we gotta do something yeah do you heal yeah yeah i'd make a motion to approve the uh hancock street curb cut uh subject to um some ramifications a double fine uh or a double fee uh assessment on the carb cover removal well you know we approve it here
55:12and she's ignoring us i mean we're gonna let him know we'll approve it subject to her coming in and to talk about it whether or not she should put it back or pay a fine i'll go along with that but to say we're going to prove it here tonight and then tell her you know you've done something wrong she's going to be nervous it's not going to come in if you don't prove it with the
55:32conditions upon receipt of the check that i guess and then who decides so let's assume that we approve it subject to receiving the check for the fine or however you want to term it and that doesn't happen what's our recourse then well you have a timeline you can set any timeline but the project is not received prior to the next subcommittee meeting you can determine it you can table it and that if a check
55:58is running table the matter if a check is brought in everything's fine then we consider it and she doesn't bring a check in at that meeting you can remove it i would go i would go one step further and just say we make a motion now and i can amend the motion it's within 30 days we receive double the permit fee associated with the uh opening and would you also require her appearance 30 days
56:20i mean i'd leave that up to the committee but 30 days and if we don't receive a payment within 30 days then we folk it gets forwarded to uh corporation council for enforcement of yeah you know actually to be taken that the farm is put back in place i mean if i may what would be the fine on that double wall i think the fee was 125.
56:41and it depends on the that you're going to use for this i think it's just a double fee do we have that in order do you know we do it so typically if you don't take if you do work at your house and you don't take out the building from it they just they double it it's an after the fact filing and everything every commission board uh has different fees vote so that would be 250 yeah
57:05i would say a minimum of 250. yeah well let's see if you want to research i don't want the ability to find more but no no i think when i understand from mr perry the normal cost of action would be double the required fee which theoretically should have been paid when they apply correct yeah i would go along with that and let him come in if not then let him put him back
57:28second on the motion so i'm gonna withdraw my motion just make a clean motion so the motion is to approve the curb cut at 248 hancock street subject to a permit fee being doubled paid within 30 days if not received in 30 days from this subcommittee date that the matter be referred to corporation counsel for the enforcement of the berm to be reinstalled on 248 hancock street at the cost of the owner second
58:00all in favor aye aye motion passes number five oops referred on december 14th order bryn brinnez corporation 188 tremont street for the removal of 18 feet of curbing in addition to an existing 22 and a half foot driveway for a total of 40 and a half feet at 1311 county street any proponents or opponents none counselor pelletier if i may i've been down i got a lot of calls down there about losing spots in the street
58:37because of that the pocket area that they have and it's been denied already they're coming back another bite of the apple but i think it's unfair uh for the people in that area uh to lose their parking space uh they've been running there a while and it's to me it had my way it wouldn't happen but it's here we're going to act on it and the full console's got to act on it and i'm
59:07not i'm not going to go for it i heal uh mrs first so this actual additional 18 feet is actually there's an impact to the neighborhood was that correct well i mean it's just like any other place you know once you request a curb cut you're going to eliminate one or two spaces if that's anywhere looking at the neighborhood and see if it would be you know a great loss is important
59:37but i think he wants if you if you read this the kripka is on county street though
59:59one yeah you're on counter street good engineering no no no no no i'm sorry i apologize yeah yeah mcgowan not world county no to be honest with you i went up there today and i surveyed the situation and uh i actually don't see no problem up there okay uh it's gonna depend right all right i'm gonna have to call no no i was going to make a motion and reconsider all the ones that we just approved
1:00:32based on the engineering opinion that we received yeah yeah i'm all set with this one like i said okay on number five yeah number five you say number five is six five five five yeah i guess it was confusing how it was advertised where it threw fremont street in right right for some reason it's fremont street is their mailing who's in the addre second album female aye aye motion passes number six
1:01:04okay you want me to go into it again or you're gonna read it and then for the record
1:01:151040 eastern avenue for the removal of 16 feet of curbing on the mcgowan street side corner lot in addition to an existing 26-foot driveway on eastern avenue for a total of 42 feet at 10 40 eastern avenue referred december 14 21. council paladia all right as i stated prematurely that uh i got a two three calls from that area a month ago and it's been a situation ongoing that they're trying to get this curb cut
1:01:48and they're looking for it again and i think the people in that area don't want it they don't need it and we as counselors should you know if there's something wrong uh we should try to straighten it out but to vote for this i i think it's wrong i'm not going to support it and that's where i view it thank you are you do you heal do we have uh proponents yes tell us uh
1:02:16just in terms of item six um i think mr aguiar brings up a good point last sentence there says for zoning purposes this parcel may not be able to comply with the parking bio after removing spaces um and i say that because i think oftentimes we just look at you know the curb removal without the actual impact which obviously this this council doesn't have the jurisdiction but i i think
1:02:39you know to his point and obviously the planning background that he has um you know for site plan reviewing the number of required spaces on on a commercial property you know what's the impact and are they still um maintaining what they're required to have for for you know offsite parking uh for their space so i think with that um i'll turn over to mr aguiar to see what his recommendation would be on how
1:03:03this i guess this committee should be handling um some of the curb cuts knowing that from from a site plan review or or planning purpose how can we minimize going forward um all right all right exposure yeah i'm just looking to get the uh how to minimize our exposure for approving uh curb cuts that might not or might lead to um them not being compliant with uh planning and cpa can you i do proponents
1:03:35scoops steps up to the microphone please hi my name is cindy thieves and i bought people incorporated you're right yes ma'am for the record cindy thiefs your address oh 26 mcgowan street thank you and i've been there for 52 years and that since i've driven my car my brother and my family and in the neighbors that side of the street has been always an issue and now we i'm here for my neighbors because
1:04:11it's still an issue there's not hardly no way to park and when there's snow removal every single spot on that side is taken so if they open up that parking spot that's that um curb cut that will eliminate two spots and so we'll have two cars where are they gonna go we have people incorporated and we have androids and then that's it and they'll have to go on the other side of the street the
1:04:40other street to park because that's that's where they'll be ending up because all the other tournaments around all the parking spots is all loaded too and so i we went through this four years ago and they settled for them to do a horseshoe and that was working my honest opinion now that i'm home and i'm retired and i see more than i used to see i don't think they need a curb cut i
1:05:08think they need a bigger parking lot in my opinion because they those there's too many bands in and out at the same time so they want to eliminate so someone could get out and someone can come in no i think they need a bigger parking spot parking lot and then when they eliminate that where are there people that work there going to park that's the other issue that they're not looking at so
1:05:37i'm really here for my for my ten for my neighbors because it's always been an issue over there and i do have pictures that i took from the last storm to show you how many cars park on that side and it's pretty full that whole side if you want to see it i mean there's no doubt that that area in mcdonald's street it's a very congested area i mean
1:06:12and this is i i took a picture to where the stop sign is because that's that's the only spot that would be left after all those cars could pop on that side of the street no one parks near the stop sign because they're gonna get wrapped you know there you lose your you lose your mirrors so in this picture this is in essence where they would want to come out of the box yes
1:06:41well we don't really know we don't really know which leads to my comments right but if you can see my pictures the whole road is taken up i know my neighbors and and we have a two family ourself and my mom is out she's in her 80s so eventually downstairs will get rented too so i'll be looking at two tenants so over here look at 14 spots already that's what they got 14 yeah this six
1:07:15he's asking you but you're talking about the business yeah oh they don't have more than they got more than 14.
1:07:22at least 20 straight spaces it appears
1:07:35so like i said if you look there's not a lot of there's not you can't do a lot of activity with bands in there it's very small and once all these cars are all popped in there they they don't have any way to shift to back and forth that things like to get out so that's why they want that so they can just come back in and they can
1:08:22so in essence looking at this picture you can come in it's almost like a uh it's a horse a rotary yes that they can go right around and go right out exactly so i mean it there shouldn't be any difficulty in entering or exiting the property they just over extending what the vehicle is coming in at one time and for the record people incorporated was no were notified they were asked to attend is anybody here
1:08:46from people incorporating no like i just don't want to go through this every four years because this is the third time now yeah and it's a residential area too it's not business well it is because you have three businesses it is but you know what that used to be it's a mixture when i was 12 years old that was called you so whether they say used to bees don't matter anymore i don't even say it anymore
1:09:20you know i just you know i just think that they are taking away from our neighbors they don't they going by 2 30 every day and then not only that andrea i don't even want to bring this up that androids during the daytime that whole street is all taken from them so now that i'm retired and i have friends over i have to make sure they can pocket my pocket my driveway because
1:09:44there's no room on the street so this is ferrara i have to agree with this i think that when these requests come in for curb cuts i mean if you look at this you know it doesn't tell you why they need it what's the purpose of it so it's kind of hard to to make a decision when you're listening to the neighborhood with their complaints but yet we don't have anything that says
1:10:14hey i need it because i have 20 vans and traffic is tough something that will guide us i mean all we have is you know the application pictures that's it and no appetite to be here to explain or address the situation this is like the second time we're hearing this and you've we've had nobody come in so i don't think there are too much well with that i would accept the
1:10:37motion because i guess before we make the motion can i just from mr aguiar just in terms of how we minimize because clearly based on this map you know we've got a 26 foot opening request and obviously we don't know the exact location but it's gonna it's gonna come from parking spots and we don't know how many parking spots it's gonna take up um and if they're gonna have to replicate it and again we don't know
1:10:57what uh the zoning requirements were placed on this commercial property at the time so i just to mr aggie how do we minimize the committee's risk by approving curb cuts in the future okay so on this site in particular so when you look at their their request letter they state they have an existing opening of 26 feet which would be the driveway on eastern avenue if you look at their
1:11:21actual letter i'm sorry they're looking for so they're looking for an additional 16 feet somewhere on mcgowan street where on mcgowan street they have not illustrated that common sense would think that it would be to this far end of the site to minimize the amount of spaces lost on mcgowan but they haven't provided that they could they could be thinking that they want it up here near the crosswalk
1:11:44but you can't make a determination because you haven't been given that information so when you have something specifically a commercial use that has a certain amount of designated spaces and an existing commercial use that can't you lose existing spaces you need to look at more than just a 16-foot removal of curve which is really what this committee is charged to do but when you're making a determination of
1:12:10should they get additional curb removed then you need to look a little bit deeper into that so there are a number of different permitting aspects of this that should take place or at least be presented to you before you can make that determination if you've been out to this site so it was originally an office building which has different types of traffic patterns people come in in the morning they park
1:12:29they stay all day this is heavily traveled with buses all day long not gigantic school buses but different types of transportation services that people incorporated provide and they utilize this horseshoe for drop offs and pickups and everything else like that the best that they can so i'm assuming that they want to come up with some new kind of traffic pattern whether it be one way in one way out
1:12:53new painted arrows i mean this needs to be looked at in whole to illustrate how our traffic pattern is going to change how many spaces are you going to lose on site how many are you going to lose offsite and come up with a scenario you know does this make sense or not but without being provided that information this committee shouldn't even discuss it to be honest with you um so hopefully moving forward
1:13:17at the engineering department level if it were me i wouldn't even accept this application unless that information was provided to me i would say it's incomplete and if you want to sit down and we can discuss the best way or the you know let's see how what's the best way you can present this i'd be more than glad to sit down and guide them through some of that but for them to fill out an
1:13:38application and just throw it at you and say act on it and then not come now we're not penile as boards or committees we can only act on what's before us and that's what we can do so so as of now with what's been submitted you can either again table it send a letter asking for a completed drawing illustrating exactly what they want to do or you can just take it and act on it
1:14:05for what's been submitted should we incorporate language i mean i i know your your stance is as the city engineer currently is to you would sit down your approach would be different if you're not in that position how do we minimize it is it just a stipulation to every vote that we take that it well what should happen again and this goes back to chicago street and i don't
1:14:26want to add more fuel to the fire but in any parcel of land in the city of florida has for most zoning districts you have a maximum amount of lock coverage that you can utilize the amount pavement buildings sidewalks and driveways so just because you allow a curb cut to be created which is in the right of way that doesn't mean that zoning allows you to go in and pave the rest of your lock
1:14:51you may need zoning relief to do that if you're going to exceed the allowable lock cover so i think any permit that this committee approves grants or recommends that there should be some caveat or stipulation that this does not proclude you from additional permits applications anything whether it be local state or federal any permit that gets issued from any department should have that
1:15:14stipulation that we are looking at a narrow scope there may be other permitting that needs to take place beyond this board so hanover street being one not only did they put in the horseshoe driveway without of the appropriate permit they expanded their entire paved surface in front of their house without a permit and cut handcuffs sorry which may not have been the appropriate manner
1:15:40it's a little bit difficult to go back but i think moving forward people need to be alerted to that fact that there are other permitting agencies in this city that deal with driveways lot coverage things like that so we probably should have uh some type of checklist you know how much area are you gonna are you gonna uh well see site plan review would get into that so in certain circumstances like this
1:16:03commercial one for instance you could there's not a lot of things that trigger site plan review especially when we're dealing with small things but at any point in time if this committee decides hey this is a little bit questionable you can make a condition of approval that they go through the site plan approval process shouldn't be up for for this committee to do that level of of research and
1:16:23permitting but if you just send them to site plan review those things will get looked at beyond just the scope of this of the driveway and then it would come back to us with those recommendations correct because they may get to the point that hey you can't put in the driveway mm-hmm without a variance maybe your variance gets denied so now you're wasting your time dealing with the 16-foot curb
1:16:44opening when maybe they shouldn't even be here before the scenario excuse me and we cuts only come here because letter goes out to the butters and some of your voters have questions or whatever so when we discuss the curb cut if you have that list and you have everything i think it's so much better making the decision because now you now you know what the party wants for a curb cut
1:17:09yeah you should at least 100 like i said anyone that comes through my desk now will have i mean we don't want homeowners that want to put in a driveway to have to go spend a thousand dollars on a site plan it doesn't take much for them to draw out with a tape measure this is my driveway this is the rest of my lot this is where i want my new driveway to be this is
1:17:31what's left and then make a determination even just based on something very rudimentary like that just a couple of dimensions something commercial should require really a lot more right how i found out about this before i got any letters or anything um my neighbor across the street um brian he has the white truck and he packs missing no matter snow whatever that's his spot somebody came up to him was doing a
1:18:00measurement so that's why i'm thinking we got thinking it's going to be near the corner or no it's going to be in the middle because he told him where he parks his car his truck he's not going to be popping it too much longer so i think the people incorporated must have already got somebody looking at the job so that's the measurements like i told you so that's when my neighbor came to
1:18:22me because i'm their brother and he said cindy that i'm getting wind of a curb cut i'm like you're going to be kidding me again so i came right down here and i've been hit three times before this meeting ever even indented i because and i got a petition i got um like i got right on it my neighbors are all against it so i'll make a motion to uh deny the cut request second
1:18:51all in favor aye motion passes thank you thank you thank you very much do i have to do this every four years no that's not under rock control yeah these meetings are nice we enjoy having you here right now so at some point you can't go back for a period of time this is a committee that reviews things so i do not believe that there is a provision i think that if they really wanted it it
1:19:27would have been here right actually yeah like i said it might be more a case of maybe we'll
1:19:48okay thank you hi do you have any traffic concerns about the piping no no no no no temporary
1:20:12um i would accept a motion to take seven eight and nine together uh so moved second all in favor all right hi we have a representative from mass electric okay we have an order of mass electric company installation of approximately 562 feet of underground conduit on south main street and bradford avenue referred december 28 2021 uh installation of 78 feet of underground conduit on morgan street
1:20:44and installation of a new pole and underground conduit on plymouth avenue i think you said 78 79 just i did say 78 you're right it is 79. my glasses are over here yeah it costs a pelvis well the question was how big is the trenches what are you going to use to fill it are you going to give the kid uh and that's about it trenches piping is 36 inches under the road covered in concrete
1:21:19okay excuse me sir can you state your name and john john doherty i work at the summerset office for national greetings thank you um basically each trench is 36 inches deep okay all the pipes are covered in concrete yeah okay so you got 30 you got six inches of concrete 30 inches of cover okay in a very rare instance it's 24 inches if that's the case we cover with a steel
1:21:46plate and then we have the rest of cover okay each trench is approximately two to three feet wide depending on the amount of pipes going into into the um into the trench okay so these particular these particular petitions for this conduit we don't have a lot of pipe it's only two four inch pipes so the trunks won't be very wide it'll be probably a two foot trench all right there's 36 36 inches in the ground
1:22:21the one for plymouth ave we're going from a new pole against approximately 55 feet to an existing manhole which will come off the curb and run down the side of the road because the handhold is in the street in that area okay the other one same thing off pull 33 whipple street it comes down the pole rises into the street goes down to the intersection of ripple and morgan i
1:22:49believe it is yeah the hand holds right in the corner of morgan and we're clear street about 79 feet two four inch pipes so that's pretty much runs curbside down but it will be in the street so the cut is going to be on whipple and the manhole is the main hole yeah the middle is on the corner of morgan and whipple so it's going to come down the pole down like hug the sidewalk and
1:23:11maybe a small bend into the manhole which is on the corner are you doing cure to kill him no so let me jump in a little bit so let's start with with the morgan street that you're talking about so the existing manhole number four that's within the paved surface now correct okay so your entire trench will be do you think like sidewalk it won't be down the sidewalk we like maybe hug the
1:23:38sidewalk right so at the edge of the curb you're you're gonna start your trench you're not gonna start a trench six inches off the face of the crib you're gonna uh we're not gonna be right on the curb so it might be you know six inches might be yeah all six inches would be appropriate okay yeah we're not gonna be right on the curb zone if it were me rather than have a trench i'll start
1:23:59with the basic curve having existing asphalt then a trench and then existing asphalt again wherever we decide the outside limit of that trench to be if it's going to be close to the curb then it should be patched all the way to the curb so that we don't have this type of a situation right patching patching is the last result we try to direct drill now okay as opposed to actually cutting the road sometimes you
1:24:25have to sure but we we uh we try to direct drill for us that's that's the more appropriate that well that would be great but i'm assuming the permit you're asking for is yes in the case of exactly half of the permits that i have to sign the street opening permits whether it's for liberty utilities or water department or anything else and this city as you drive around you'll see one of
1:24:46the biggest concerns is the amount of patching that takes place in all of these roadways right specifically roadways up that aren't all that old so we have a five-year program that you just can't without city council approval to get into a street so now whenever we're dealing with patches the city has become very progressive with how do we deal with these trenches and how do we deal with
1:25:04these patches the opening of the street is not a concern as long as we have proper police you know details and traffic concerns and relocations like that it's really how the site is left everybody needs electricity everybody understands that but how the site is left is what the concern is so i know that there are different patching standards through the engineering office that you need to comply with
1:25:28so this board doesn't necessarily have to they can voice their concerns about how this patching takes place and i think a determination should be made on specific street by street and if a street like plymouth avenue which may just be outside of the five-year limit but was just totally reconstructed utilizing state funds any patching that takes place within that paved surface of plymouth avenue
1:25:54should be done with foldable fill and for attaching and done in a neat orderly square manner not a you know a diagonal or transverse cut so it should be done in a way that okay we're creating a patch that's going to withstand time but that's that's the plymouth one my my first concern was the one on bradford because that's a pretty long you're gonna you're gonna cross by correctly you're gonna you're
1:26:20starting on the east side of south main street is that correct by looking at the sketch um so north is up okay yes okay so you're coming up you're gonna cross south main street completely yes and then that entire trench will be within the paved surface as well correct okay coming off of here corner mulberry existing manhole 44 yep within the street putting a new handhold in about halfway and then tying into existing
1:26:51pole 24 correct first question is is there i understand you don't want to replace sidewalk either but is there is the ability to run that trench in the sidewalk impossible i don't know what kind of shape the sidewalks at i don't think it's impossible i don't think they i think they prefer to do it in the street i mean in the street we're not opposed to it but the level of
1:27:18hatching this is a long trench so again i would ask that it'd be off the face of the curb i would i would offer that it should at least go to the center line of the street i don't think we need to go curb the curve on a street that may need some patching already but in any event anything of this stretch should go to center line at least and then crossing south main street
1:27:44whatever that projected with would be to get you across the street would be the same lift that you would cross because we don't need a speed bump in south main street so if we have a 15 foot wide patch crossing south main street then of course that would be a little bit easier to traverse and level and maintain so as far as where they are i don't have a concern with them again as uh council
1:28:06pelletier stated i think the concern is the patching and not leaving speed bumps divots or whatever you want to call it to add uh to these streets so i'm not opposed to the work i think through the engineering department um you could condition these with the satisfaction or that these trenches that they work with the engineering department to work with trenches and you state at a minimum to the center line um
1:28:35on anything from the face of curb the center line anywhere where they're running a pretty good distance so what what would be the the recommended number of feet that you would say at that point it has to be centerline i mean i know we're looking at three over three hundred feet here and the other one is seventy nine bradford 100 i don't think morgan street needs to be whipple's not a super heavily traveled
1:28:58area so i think if they ran a four foot trench off the face of the curb i think that would be sufficient um and they're not crossing morgan so they're not going to be creating that speed bump when you're traveling like down morgan so i think ripple four feet off the face of the curb patch would be fine depending upon the condition of the street now the streets already somewhat busted up i don't think they necessarily
1:29:19have to go to the extent the floor will fill whatever the normal standards are for you know for a utility patch like that so whipple i don't think is a big deal the plymouth avenue one 100 any patching that takes place there and again i don't think it's a lot when you look at what they're doing is and you said the distance you think from the new poll 14-2 to the new man up to
1:29:43the existing manhole is about what about 50 feet okay so what i what i would suggest there is that so from wherever that manhole is that we do a patch like this i don't want to do a diagonal patch okay from there there so whatever that is this man hole in the center of the street or is it so it was off to the curb line then maybe we can just go to center
1:30:11but i i think if the board or the committee gives the recommendation that we work together on that determination so if this manhole is clearly within that right travel lane then yes only if the center line i think would be sufficient okay if it's in the middle of the road then no we will clear the performance i just like to say tonight mr perry you told me that he wasn't going to be at this meeting
1:30:39that he had somebody coming in a guy named mr aggio i knew what he was talking about i'm very very impressed all the information that you gave us i mean i don't have a lot to do right now you had time to deal with this and i only dealt with this over the last couple of hours well that's good imagine we have more time we had engineers flying in and out of here for
1:31:02a long time some stayed three months four months and uh one of them grew up here not one of them grew up yeah so i think it's refreshing that we've got somebody that actually i don't say the other guys didn't know but to lay this out tonight like you did what do i know you're the professional i'm just a counselor that's it but you can thank the mayor and the rest
1:31:26of the city council yeah so uh when it comes up uh you're gonna have my vote and everything else so and uh you guys would be a little more busy i don't know we're gonna be busy you know it sounds good uh he knows what he's talking about so that's a good thing with that idea thank you well besides uh mr perry who was busy cleaning the streets out of these tires
1:31:50he could apologize that he couldn't make it but i don't know pleasant street shut down today in front of scotty's what a mess that was around city hall but there was so much snow pile there when they had they started trucking snow out they closed down pleasant streets and he was out there dealing with that the whole time just as you know did you file your street opening permit yet the civil
1:32:08contractor that um that doesn't work for us usually files it okay so when when he does file that yeah he's not going to file it until he's ready to stop the work okay right at that time we can deal with the patching stuff i mean they come across my desk talking heavy okay um so i'll keep an eye out for these and make sure that they contact me to deal with the patching okay um yeah man
1:32:30i'm sure a woman that i guess and i appreciate mr aguias um insight into this and i agree with this uh i've just been a huge proponent of trying to make sure that our roads especially with the amount of money that we're putting in for our infrastructure is handled properly right and i've got all the confidence in mr hagia but again i think um so let me backtrack i'll make a motion
1:32:54to accept his recommendation because i do agree uh south main and bradford that should go right to the center line right um i've said this before when we start looking at president i have to see the the disaster that was the president left by the gas company was atrocious that should have went from curve to center line as well that's a wide street um but when we get to these side streets
1:33:14especially whipple street i know where mr again is coming i think this is where we differ a little bit uh my take is that we should go prep the curve on those these these side streets um it sometimes don't get repaved for you know 30 40 years so i think anytime we have any type of road opening or any you know any work that's going underground that's gonna require a road opening then we
1:33:35should go especially if there's a smaller curve to curb uh even if it's just uh you know a small trench that's just my take so i'll give in in my opinion i'll i'll give mr aggie have the authority to go ahead and work with the electric company on those two patches but going forward i think you know now that we have missed again i think it might be good that we file a resolution
1:33:53to have them come back down and discuss how we should handle uh all of our road opening permits in terms of the patchwork you know moving forward so with that i'll i'll make a motion that we approve um the south main street rapid ave work to be done with a repair from curb to center line and then morgan street and plymouth ave um for the electric company to work with the city engineer in terms of an
1:34:21adequate patching uh job associated with that that's it second all in favor aye aye so that was one motion for all three correct yeah no i very much appreciated you being here this evening you definitely made things so much easier and uh really clarified a lot so hopefully it'll be easier when stuff gets filtered a little bit more before you're asked to take a look at it thank you very much sir thank you
1:34:51pleasure meeting you as well have a good night no just if i if i could just on in terms of mr again i think it was i've said it before it's refreshing i know mr i know what type of individual he is but again it is refreshing to see an individual come here prepared being able to speak to the issues that we have and he's a subject matter expert and i think as counselors sometimes we don't
1:35:12have that subject subject matter expertise we need to be able to rely on department heads so again we've struggled sometimes especially in this particular area so i want to give kudos to uh to miss again in regards to what he's brought to the table and i look forward to having you know more discussions with him because it makes it makes our job a little bit easier when we're here at subcommittee's uh just having your
1:35:31insight in and offering up different uh alternatives to um you know different street openings or any issues that we we have so that we can kind of get a counter perspective on things and try to work with all the residents on both sides so thank you i appreciate it any of you ever have any comments or concerns feel free to have one question sure about maybe a year and
1:35:50a half or so ago there was an article in a newspaper about a town that had depending if it was the gas company electric companies stamps discs that were put in the ground so as soon as you saw the disc you know you knew interesting did the work well what happens is this this office well the engineering office here has an unbelievable ability to track and keep records it's it's amazing what information that they have
1:36:19they don't throw anything out so it's if you can know as long as you know where you can find it you can track down i was surprised at the number of street opening permits that get processed even our own water department anything that they any shovel they put in the ground they file a permit for whether it's to fix a height whether it's to fix a leak there is a paper trail throughout the
1:36:40whole process and through that there are different boxes to check is this a five-year road is it not you know different patching mechanism so that's that's a pretty argus process to keep track of but but you're right that i mean it's not a bad idea i don't know which town or municipality it was um or who who's required to do it whether it's the utility company itself that has to put it in
1:37:03um i'll go back in and try and find that article for you but it was pretty interesting and uh it made so much sense you know it was a matter of yep we know who exactly did this work because it's here and and i guess they had to do it very yeah something to look at motion to adjourn second one table all right good times
1:37:48you