7.24.2023 Charter Review Committee

It's Five O'Clock welcome to the special Charter review committee meeting it's Monday July 24 2023 it's 5 p.m and we are located in the hearing room at one government center in Fall River Massachusetts and with that I would ask the vice chair to read the open meeting law statement we're so into the open meeting one in person may make an audio or video recording of this public meeting or may transmit the

meeting through any medium attendees or therefore advise that said recordings or Transmissions are being made with a perceived the Run perceived by those present and I deemed acknowledge and permissible and with that will you join me with the Pledge of Allegiance please of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for

all thank you everybody and if we could uh take attendance starting at my far left Mr Mitchell John Mitchell Tim Campos Mimi laravey Laura Washington Marina Brown and I did get a message that Kathy nimkovich will is unable to attend and I do not know about Alan Ramsey or Tracy our media but if they come in I'm more than welcome and uh this time we would like to open this up for public comment

all right I'll say something I can go up there I'll keep quiet

uh I read the agenda for tonight part of it had to deal with the uh the audit yeah you didn't hear me I'll give Ennis 25 rights away thank you uh on the agenda and at last meeting you had a conversation about the uh audit and uh you know the cost of it was talked about forensic audit not just a regular order forensic audit and one of the things that I was remembering from the original charter

committee was they talked about instead of doing one massive forensic audit for her five million dollars so whatever the cost would be to split the city up into different departments and have a department audited on a yearly basis you know one one year one Department next year another two or three departments and third year so that that cost would be spread out and only be I don't know a million dollars or a

million and a half dollars whatever it is nothing I'm not that I like the price but that way instead of having no searching for 10 million dollars to do an audit you could spread it out and then on year six you start all over again with department number one go on to that and that's that's it for me I guess tonight thank you and joining us is Tracy almina Glide you to the attendance thank you Tracy

and at this time you know there are minutes for June 12th if motion to accept the minutes in place on file exactly there's a motion it's been seconded and now positions all in favor unanimously approved discussion and review of the Provo proposed forensic audit section A Mr Machado was kind enough to send us a handout right a two-page handout

I actually reviewed a meeting to do the minutes and because it was fresh in my mind I came up with this draft I have voted in favor or against a forensic audit I just thought that while it was fresh in my mind I put some thoughts down on paper but I haven't voted yet we haven't finished discussing this right it was just a it just was a two-page document not not anything that

was approved so I I don't know if everybody gets to see it it was in the emails some discussion I've not seen it Madam chair thank you uh to miss the benefit of the public comment I don't remember that exact discussion five years plus ago uh I think your word it did happen um that's an interesting proposal it's not something that I'm either in favor of or against right now I find it interesting um

I I don't know exactly how to get language in I know I've uh Mr Campos had some good ideas at the last meeting there was no vote on this issue I just think there needs to be something that you can put triggers in you can put requirements I'm open to anybody's thought process language there needs to be something in these recommendations that talks about some level of a forensic audit there have

been too much over the years too much Fuzzy Math too much uh budget deficits being made up on cloud nine I remember when when math Lanigan was in office there was a nine million dollar budget deficit then it went away some years before we got 11 million dollars from BFI nobody knows where that went just wait until all the Apple money dries up and you see the budgets and the

issues that I believe in my own opinion this city is going to face financially it's not going to be pretty so in my opinion so I'm open to hearing ideas hearing discussions but we need some level of a for some trigger some requirement some language that gives us the ability to do some level of a forensic audit before we send these recommendations away I know at the June 12th meeting in the middle I'm sorry

thank you in the June 12 minutes a motion was made in in failed but then another motion was made to table it and this is the this is the resurrection of that tabled discussion yeah right I shared the meeting after Madam chair what I don't recall I I again I haven't watched that meeting in a while we've been on a short Hiatus in uh but I don't recall that first motion

I do recall the motion to table yes um in in the the it's it's section six six in the charter that references the um a city audit and um there was a lot of just to just to review it there was a lot of discussion about the cost there was a lot of discussion about what would prompt such an undertaking um and when it was a lot of the who what why when and how much

I know that Tracy had something from Ohio it was in the millions it was the forensic audit was triggered I think of Chicago or something um it was it was triggered by a significant shortfall or a discrepancy in the budget it wasn't arbitrary or required as part of a significant or a regularized process but only initiated in certain circumstances where there was some kind of a kind of right and and so that was the

language that I've Drew it's important not putting in regular eyes because it did cost a lot of money and I'm saying just the point of parliamentary procedure since this matter was tabled should we have emotions lifted I'm going to go back to the June 12th um you made a motion to have a complete forensic audit every 10 years there was a lot of discussion and it went to a vote but it went it was

turned down yeah I'm talking about the emotions and the rainbow now hang on and then hang on then Mr Campos made a motion to table the topic so is there a motion on the table I'm making emotional with the uh for with the discussion topic of a forensic audit second okay anybody opposed all in favor aye okay so now the forensic audit is untabled does anybody have a copy of

their Charter and if you do could you read six six please would you mind reading the um Charter portion of the six six regarding city audit yep the city council shall annually provide an outside audit of the books and accounts um of the city to be conducted by a certified public accountant or a firm or certified public accountants which has no personal interest direct or indirect in the fiscal affairs

of the city or any of its officers the mayor shall annually provide to the city council funds sufficient to satisfy the estimated cost of conducting the audit as presented to the mayor in writing by the city council the award of a contract to conduct the audit shall be made by the city council on or before September 15th of each year the report of the audit shall be filed in filed in final

form with the city council not later than March 1st in the year following its award within 30 30 days of the filing of the audit report the city council shall call a joint meeting with the administration and the independent auditor to discuss the findings of the independent audit at least every five years the city council shall conduct a competitive procurement process to retain these auditing services

without rehearsing my wife Minnie that that is an audit that is required by all all 352 cities and towns in the state of Massachusetts have to do an order a forensic audit is different I'm open to further discussion I'm open to setting triggers I'm open to setting parameters obviously there was a motion that was rejected for a flat 10-year just doing it uh straightforwardly every 10 years but what I'm working for is

even with triggers even with modifications with parameters is very different than what I'm going to refer to as the year we check before it we the city council just had that checkbook on it reviewed by the Auditors it was Hagen sahadi maybe for 15 or 20 years that did the annual order the last four ideas is now been conducted by another firm The Firm for those audits goes out to

competitive bid but what I'm working for is very different than the audit that is required by every city in town in the state of Massachusetts right now with that I look forward to hearing the ideas of my comments thank you I yield thank you Mr story with Campos um well I just I did some research on how other cities and not just here in Mass but in general and they do add more language especially

what I mean a lot of cities have a city auditor instead of hiring firms to do that I don't know if we have anything close to that but it seems like we don't we think we do we have a city owner I think the position was making but yeah but they haven't right so a couple cities that I looked at that were of Interest they have both the city auditor and they have

an independent budget analysts and those are only short period of time jobs like I think it's like five years it's all elected by the city and then based on those two departments they come up with a committee and that committee works with those two departments and then from there that would be a trigger for our forensic audit so if something was found if they say listen it says 10 million here it

says 7 million here right because why you have two different independent two cities with slightly different roles um and then that would be a trigger and which I mean a forensic odd is going to be very costly so you know trying to figure out how we Implement that as a required thing is difficult you know and I don't and I agree that it's something we need to do I just it has to be some kind of

trigger and I don't know exactly what the specifics of that trigger would be but you've got to have some checks and balances on how that trigger would be made also right so that was kind of and I read through these I mean it's a language if we have some of those positions in place it might be something to review just to add a little bit more clarity because it's a very

you know short section on an independent audit so you know it might be something to look at but so the one you looked at the city council themselves picked a city auditor yeah and then the company went out to bid so there was the city Auditor in this independent company correct they both looked at all the same things I say and then they had an end of and then they have another department so

it's essentially three people looking at all this it was an independent budget analyst so that's another title or committee that's created as a whole maybe it's like 10 people that's you know voicing is one and they're reviewing all the things that came both from the city auditor as well as the third party firm and based on those three bodies they would determine whether or not a deeper dive or forensic

audit was necessary so again like that could be a potential trigger you know and we're not really adding any money there I don't think because we're already spending it in one way or the other but it was just a thought because I saw kind of the similar in a few different Charters and but they had the two and that was the triggering event that was the triggering event and they didn't specify what the trigger an event

was I was hoping I'd find a little bit more material on that but I don't think anyone wants to step into that because you know it once you put that hard language in there um you know it's right it's a big Bill you know it's um you know I think we talk about five million well I don't know that I found online were I think in the last in the minutes 23 to 275 000 so

anywhere between that that's what we that's what's in the minute yeah so we're talking about millions of dollars there are members of school committee and nursing Council here I see those bodies as the checks and balances in some ways right to spending from the city so if you're always looking at the from the school budget side you're looking at it more holistically and providing input and and

and if something felt amiss I would imagine it would be taken up in those within those confines of those bodies um isn't that what they're for right yeah and so since we have this inherent structure that's already overseeing that aspect of the city why do we then need any sort of trigger in the charter talking about independent audit do we not utilize these bodies for that purpose

and we they're elected by the people so those should be the people that are answering to you know the voters and I mean I think this the system works the way it is there's a reason why there's a standardized language in the 352 towns because it just works so I would not be in favor of spending or requiring any money to be done inside of an independent forensic audit although I understand the sentiment and and share

it uh absolutely but I just don't feel it's in the messengers of the city to require funding to be spent on that with any sort of uh continuity you know or triggered by some kind of an event that we decide I mean that just feels wrong to me I I have a couple questions when the council or the school committee gets audited right they said that the you guys are you guys the council orders

it the mayor approves the money and you get a report back right is that an executive session this report of this no it's in budget season it's in budget and I was just going to say so yours too is it is it an independent so it's an independent so an independent auditor does the school committee kind of books and we have our finance okay I believe you have an interview I know that there's an independent

auditor I don't know what school companies in 6.6 the language was it's an outside person yeah they do a report gets paid by the mayor goes back to the city council yeah I don't know if that's like no no no okay because they ultimately have the School what does that like how detailed is are those budget reviews um

down down to department and not like just a general scoping like line items we are expected to go line item right but we we just changed it this past year I want to say in 22 that we won't we wouldn't be voting anymore line item it would be all or nothing holding the budget but we pick everything out if that so when you get it you you review the line items and

then when you bring the superintendent in the department heads in it's yes why was it 500 000 for toilet paper yes so but here's the issue if you see a discrepancy you just you we would bring it up with them our Chief Financial Officer with us at all times we ours is probably about four weeks long I believe four meetings long and all department heads are there principals of their administrators

and what happens if there's a description that's what I wanted to they answer questions and they get back to us and maybe it's to fix something or or not fix something give us a better explanation you know but a lot of things are addressed the audit's completely different though I mean I got it done yeah I mean they're done all over the state um the places that don't have a lot of experience

if you've ever seen a lot of report I mean it comes back with recommendations on what instrument and change policies it points out any you know problems with finances and that so the city must pay a lot for their yeah I would think probably you know hundreds of thousands for the one that they're doing now I would think yeah just based on the size of the budget right it's got to be substantial

I don't know I kind of share Tracy's sentiment that we have about elected officials and bodies that are working at this I mean I I don't doubt I mean if it's also overseen by bli so I mean they've got the local Finance group the Department of Revenue so and what they they oversee our yeah I mean they ultimately approve stuff okay they have policies they have limit what you can and can't do with the

budget how matters how funds are expended and that so pretty regulated and other specific instances of money mismanagement that you're aware of that you think justifies this from this big forensic I mean because I don't know I I remember seeing a report in the mid to late 80s where they said Hagen sahadi did a recreation of the city's books on the roof there's been a lot of stuff with health

care a lot of stuff with pensions like I said uh you know there was a lot of questions about the BFI money some years ago we got a 11 million dollars and it I I don't know what what I think the city and if it offends some people I'm just gonna say what I feel and how I've seen it over the years there's been a lot of fuzzy Fall River math a lot of figures figures change

more I know budgets are living documents I get all that I just I've never trusted a lot of city numbers I don't yeah I mean unless you have time to disprove them you've got to go with them you know unless you can prove that something is wrong in front of you but I I just think there's been too many instances with Health Care uh pensions you've seen uh questions about BFI money

over the years that there's been school department deficits that would just not recently but over the years going back to when uh Georgia comb was running from there when when uh when Desi first came down here when when Bob career brought uh that's it you know I I don't know I I just think there needs to be something in here that allows uh for some type of forensic on it if

it's not the will of this committee that's that's the way it goes but I I just seen too much forward before the numbers and fuzzy math or what about the um so the company The Firm that does the audits right it seemed like it was the same for quite a while now it's a different company is that true what is it again the order was not done yeah it was no I

relationship that's happening with certain Auditors and certain people because you just kind of indicated that you know there was an issue possibly that these numbers were not legitimized um you know perhaps we could set a time limit on how long we use a particular firm for um no if that is of an of interest to anyone where we're suspecting that there's an issue with firm and what they're producing or what they're

recommending to the city right now you're saying like an outside outside yeah not a you know like city of Fall River I don't want to disparage anybody but yeah yeah I'd be uncomfortable with somebody that lives or has a business here to be the ones doing the books but it's not it's not it's somebody way out yeah or even just cycling them every few years you know where the city council has to

you know review candidates every three to five years why would I would caution like just throwing the baby out like I'm just saying you know because it's you know if you get someone good in there you know from you know that's what they do you don't want to say what three is up sorry on to the next you know what I mean so put a review of the auditor I

mean but again I go back to what you said there is a process and a place for that um I have a question about the process that's supposedly in place um and six six yeah okay no no no about the city council and the school committee and Mr Robot we has a better memory than I do but I know that there have been some Financial questions in the city of Fall River that's to be expected

has the city council or the school committee ever addressed any Financial issues like that by for example if if they're the overseers do we have any examples of the city council or the school department ever initiating an audit let's say um not that I'm aware of I feel like they had to say before the money is spent right so that when it's spent they know what it's spent on they've already approved yeah so it goes

through it seems to me lots and lots of Hoops before it's already actually expended right no working for our state agency I can tell you it's an arduous process to have anything approved and when it's finally is paid there's it's gone through you know iterations and iterations of oversight and approvals beyond the scope of one particular body certainly at different levels throughout the organization in

this case municipality we haven't seen the budget process but as Mr robillard said he has um and I accept his memory um there have been a number of financial questions and my question is has the city council has the school committee ever stepped up and said wait a minute we need to investigate this problem that this problem yeah it always comes up it's non-stop it's not yeah it's uh it always a lot of

things that might get picked up audit that's a public policy questions you know right what are our revenues if we're short what do we cut um you know are we going to have free cash do we draw around it so I mean the audit will review those after the fact and say whether or not it was expended if you're violated some State regulation or city policy but I mean there's always questions around every mayor's budget

that so I mean there's never been prosecutions that's oh there's no I mean there's never been so hard to misuse money I mean you know if someone takes in a department who knows but I mean someone taking copyright there may have been a little bit of toilet paper gone in during covid but I hate Grand to go to New York to a seminar I think he ate at Fogo de Chao

right it's not right it's not a question right that's what I mean it's just that there's never been it would be pretty hard to do something that rises to the level of criminal prosecution is really kind of a question budget deficits shouldn't be a trigger Euro budgets are always in deficit because expenditures are change right particularly when you're talking about school committee with special ad

services and all of that I mean those are very variable so that can really impact a budget just in terms even a level funding when you think about what that looks like and but then the students needs go way up and then hence the expenditures do nobody can anticipate those things those aren't shouldn't be triggers for an audit those that's just that's doing business right and the other thing I thought of is if

we do a forensic audit it takes a few years we may have a whole new Administration by the time the report comes in then what happens I mean then what do you do I mean I know they make recommendations but the council can always do enough forensics well that's right they can requests someone can request it economy when you're done but six six gives them the authority as the charter as it read right now it

gives the council the authority right well state law requires an order annually yeah and they're very specialized they really yeah this is in addition to that hmm I'm sorry Mr Robot thank you I mean it is what it is but to say budgets are always in deficit that if that's the case that's not good fiscal policy but budget should not be in deficit all the time uh I know budgets are living and

working documents I happen to go to public meetings counsel and school committee all the time okay no no elected body can deficit spend so you can't be in deficit all the time that's why anytime there's a deficit what happens Administration comes down request the transfer why because you can't that the only wine item where you're allowed to deficit spend is in snow removal and a couple of other

specialized areas you can't have them your budget and deficit all the time the current budget for the city of Fall River is approximately 350 million dollars fiscally responsible City that's ludicrous whether we put the audit in or any provisions to trigger an order at one point but to say budgets are always in deficit and that's that's the whipping working way that the government

runs and that shouldn't be a trigger for an audit uh that wasn't literal so I think he missed it but I said a little bit oh you said budget deficits should not be a trigger for an audit and budgets are regularly in deficit okay so in my 20 years okay and my 20 plus years of being a political Observer I find that method of government to be dangerous and frankly illegal

because the only lines that you can deficit spend in are snow removal and a couple of other specialized areas so well not that you would spend deficit spend but that your budgets your planning is you you can plan for x amount of dollars in a particular area in that particular area the cost can be more exorbitant so then you have to work within the budget to cover those expenses and take from a different part

and of course you have to spend what you have you can't overspend that's why you have budget priorities correct and that's why I agree but budget budget meetings should go on for hours about 45 minutes there should be multiple nights of budget meanings uh but I I don't know okay and I do all right so we've uh spent an extraordinary amount of time on this is there any motions on the table regarding

forensic audit language and we're really addressing six six because if six six I don't know if you want it's short if you want to read it one more time or if everybody has it um is there a motion to change add or leave alone you will relieve section 66 as it is second there's a motion on the table to leave 6.6 as it is made by Mr Mitchell seconded by I don't know who did it

first so I'm gonna let the secretary figure out that was Tracy of Laura is that are there any oppositions to that motion opposed okay okay one would you like a low call mode as long as I'm noted as opposed but all in favor of leaving 6.6 I I the eyes have it 6.6 stays as it is moving on to the Charter Report Draft it it really I put the next three

on the agenda to get an update as to where we are with the report draft and the draft Charter so I'm going to take um three four no

July 31st um however after uh speaking with numbers of the uh Corporation Council no July because it's August 1st no just uh the report but after speaking to the Corporation Council Office it appears that if we need additional time um if additional time is warranted because it's important work that uh it shouldn't be a problem I mean um we're working with a charter that has been regularly not adhered to right um

so I don't know maybe maybe we need a motion to you know um have three or four more meetings because I I where are we with the report draft gentlemen Mr Machado I'm just talking about the report I'm not talking about the chart I'm just talking about the report because this took the report there's a report that goes to the city council kind of summarizes no no one remembers that I do okay

there's a report the charter says a report goes to the city council and it was discussed that the report would consist of the major kind of changes you know changes we have a living changed draft now we have a draft of the charter okay with all the changes made okay up to date but there was going to be like a little report that accompanied it to say yeah okay all righty well there's that you

must have missed that meeting Mr Machado all right so there is a draft of the charter with the proposed changes already correct yes and we have to collage together okay so how long do you think you need to do that before we can review it realistically don't I don't think I mean we've been keeping up with all the changes in the document we just have to there's a few parts that are a little different

that he did than me but otherwise it's pretty similar it's impressive um do you think that if we I think Tim has worked on definition yes okay because I didn't know I I didn't work on that and then every all the other felons do you think August 14th is a realistic date for the committee to get a draft for it to be published and for us to have a meeting this is just a draft and

please make sure on the top it says draft okay please I don't see why that would be a big problem August 14th is one two that's two and a half you want to go a little further I have a question maybe suggestion yeah should we allot some time to get it in our hands before we come together well that's kind of that's what I'm wondering send it out on

that week of the 14th so here's what it has to do if it goes if I get it and it goes to everybody it has to be published on the website before our meeting I still don't know the city clerk just tells me I'm always late so in any event I would like to give that a week to happen so if we have a meeting August 28th can we have the draft by the 14th or the

21st so if we schedule a meeting August 28th we will have a week or two weeks to have the draft and it be published do you think you can get me the draft by the 14th true right and then we'll have the meeting the 28th and what about the report is that I don't know Paul's making faces at me apparently there's no reports the draft is the report okay I did prepare a special report

and that was something's going to happen to you right now no and and I is that what you're talking about because we were due to um have it was June 30th my memory so what I did was I did a special report concerning each of the meetings so that we could request an extension if we thought that was so that's the Special Report okay that was just that was we never

discussed it it was never submitted but the point of that was to say this is what we've done we're asking for more time because is that special report requesting more time done the only thing is that the last meeting in this meeting I'm not in

and then if we have time to review the draft we review it we come together we said we've read it we agree we disagree and then we should be able to wrap up and send it well we'll know the 28th would be where we discuss it because there may be some stuff that the committee goes oh oh heck yeah or heck no or we've got this right so there might even be one September meeting

before it's submitted if we needed it right we can amend the draft right yeah I think so I I mean no we haven't voted on it yet you voted there's a draft so a little bit on we can amend whatever we want if we're using the word and the word graph b-r-a-f-t yes that that means that we can amend it correct yes it's please title it directly is your draft graduated

because you're going to have to do an executive summary for that's what I was talking about but he gave me he gave me uh he gave me the eyes that's the report I was talking about it's a little summary on the side of the of everything that we changed a summary of everything we changed not just what we've changed is that what your special report is no okay so there was going to be a special

report that went to the council that said hey here's the big stuff let's 20 things right here's the big stuff and a paragraph that says punctuation definitions and um right can I ask you um so we have this special report which is just a summary of every meeting purpose of this was because I thought we might need to ask formally ask for a extension apparently we don't have to formally ask

for an extension so what we can do is and all it does is it talks about each of the meetings um it talks about public input it talks about major topics that were discussed so what I can do is I can edit this how about make it even easier for you I'll review your we can't give the report until we have one unified document right right now he has a

running copy that he sent to me I have a document that's got some and they're very similar but we're finishing up a few things and we have one unified document what I will do is I will read through it and compare the original that I have in Word document and I will take out a Redline all those items so anything that was added I already have that on mine I'll just add yours and

then when you guys we can separate that as it can even be in the draft like I mean the red lines can be printable in the draft but otherwise I'll just extract those put them in you know kind of a bulleted executive summary if that's what it needs to be but yeah I just I'll I'll provide them out as kind of like bulleted sectional changes um and then you'll get those so 814 the

clerks can provide me with a draft yes okay yes and then I will get a room and schedule a meeting for 8 28 for the committee to review the draft everybody will have it by then it'll be published on the website by then yes if you get it to me by the 14th yeah I guarantee it after that and then the report will come after yeah because we need a meeting to review the draft

before we do the report because it may change right right yeah 8 14 drafts for me I'll publish them clerks hearing room and then 8 28 5 PM our next meeting is for scheduling purposes is that good for everybody yes if it isn't I'll let you know but it should be okay example as long as your red line copy is okay yes yes at some point we're going to vote on the

final document before we send it right I mean when we meet 8 28 no the the draft is going to get published because we can't talk about it then after 8 28 if our draft is to the satisfaction of the committee and there's a majority vote to send it to the council with our recommendations then there'll be one more meeting to look at that and then go right yes that's how that's going to

work okay because who knows whoever you're 828 and spend five hours right oh no only till seven we voted on that okay is there any other business we've gone through the whole agenda meeting 200 oh that's up to you now I'm needing to adjourn I make a motion to adjourning anybody opposed to a journey all a favor aye aye motion adjourned cheers